right now im working on the down command, and the heel.

so far i have gotten my boy pretty good at the down..when i have a treat in my hand, i say "platz" and place my hand on the ground in front of him, he will do it. I also mark the behavior with the clicker when his stomach touches the ground. my question is how do i move from coaxing him with the treat, to rewarding him with the treat afterward the behavior? i was thinking about just putting my hand down with no treat, but im worried that might discourage him.

on the heel. i have been working on this during our walks. when he strays off, i say "heel" and give a small enough correction on the leash to put him back in line. when he is walking perfectly beside me, i will click. ocasionally after a click, i will reward him with a treat, or some play. i assume im right up to this point. now in our yard, ill let him run around, (10 foot leash still on) while i continue to walk around the yard. i say heel, and he comes to my left side. i reward him, but then he takes off again, running around some more and we repeat the process. (almost like the heel command is a come command and nothing more. im wondering if my corrections on the leash when we walk has made the "heel" become a "come.") im going to try it this way from now on... when i say heel, just use the clicker when he reaches my left side, then take a few steps and if he follows then treat... of course each time my few steps would be a few more. and be longer and longer between treats until he is no longer getting treat during the walk...only after.

now also during our walks he is easily distracted by everything from cars, to mailboxes, of course i correct on the leash, say heel and when he comes back i reward.


am i on the right path? does anyone see anything i should be doing differently? we are only about a week into our training. and the obediance trials are in jan/feb.

(he already knew sitz, and aus. and somehow i made him "auto aus" when he sits....i dont want that behavior but im not sure how to fix it just yet, so ill let it continue for now)

thanks for the input

Edited by James Biggs (10/16/2009 03:46 PM)
Edit reason: cuz i didnt know correct spellings :)

 Quote: james biggs

right now im working on the down command, and the heel.

so far i have gotten my boy pretty good at the down..when i have a treat in my hand, i say "platz" and place my hand on the ground in front of him, he will do it. I also mark the behavior with the clicker when his stomach touches the ground. my question is how do i move from coaxing him with the treat, to rewarding him with the treat afterward the behavior? i was thinking about just putting my hand down with no treat, but im worried that might discourage him.

I had this big long message typed about fading the lure, but then I got confused by this: " I also mark the behavior with the clicker when his stomach touches the ground .... how do i move from coaxing him with the treat, to rewarding him with the treat afterward the behavior?" After you mark (click), aren't you rewarding (with the treat)?

how old is the dog?

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: james biggs

right now im working on the down command, and the heel.

so far i have gotten my boy pretty good at the down..when i have a treat in my hand, i say "platz" and place my hand on the ground in front of him, he will do it. I also mark the behavior with the clicker when his stomach touches the ground. my question is how do i move from coaxing him with the treat, to rewarding him with the treat afterward the behavior? i was thinking about just putting my hand down with no treat, but im worried that might discourage him.

I had this big long message typed about fading the lure, but then I got confused by this: " I also mark the behavior with the clicker when his stomach touches the ground .... how do i move from coaxing him with the treat, to rewarding him with the treat afterward the behavior?" After you mark (click), aren't you rewarding (with the treat)?

i have to place my hand on the ground with the treat in my hand for him to do it. (thats what i meant by "coax" him) once his stomach touches the ground, i click and give him the treat. the problem is that he wont do it unless i put my hand on the ground.

 Quote: Dennis Jones

how old is the dog?

3 in december

What do you do preceding puting your hand on the ground? I don't use only positive reinforcement, but will give an example with that aspect only as I might do with a puppy.

Hold your hand with a treat in it palm out, like a traffic cop signalling stop. When your dog notices the treat or gesture, sweep your hand down passing near his nose. Go slowly enough for him to sniff at the teat or hand, but don't let him have it. End sweep with the treat under your hand on the ground. Let him have the treat when he completes the down. Gradually speed up your sweep. (Make sure you don't always down following the same exercise before. Such as every time the dog sits, it is followed by a down.) You should soon see the dog anticipating the down, either when your hand goes up to the traffic cop position, or when it begins the sweep. If he goes down after your starting hand signal, but before your hand touches the ground; jackpot, and take a play break. Eventually your hand raised position will be enough to elicit the down. Once he seems to be getting the idea, don't treat each time, but always praise.

As for your dog confusing the heel with the come, it is because that is what you are rewarding him for. When the dog is away from you and you say "heel", you reward him for reaching the heel position. That is the same as a come, but with the dog to the left side instead of in front. Until the dog understands what heel is, it would be better to use a recall first, then the heel command. Mild corrections in no way will cause the dog to confuse the two commands. Being unclear in what you are asking, is the problem. Call the dog to you and reward him for coming. Then give the heel command and reward for compliance.

Nothing at all wrong with this set of instructions, and in fact it's a method that many of us have probably used, but the O.P. is using marker training, and the m.o. would be a bit different.

I just didn't want James to become confused about marking. (Marking, of course, is instantaneous: it's the equivalent of a snapshot of the exact second when the reward was earned.)

James, about heel -- have you considered going back to step 1 (not a bad thing at all) and working for a while indoors, in a no-distraction place (basement, hallway, etc.)?

And yes, good call, Joy, that the dog is not clear (with good reason) between the recall and heel commands.

I'd work on them separately for now. Then later, as Joy suggests: "Call the dog to you and reward him for coming. Then give the heel command and reward for compliance."

I would modify that slightly to say "mark and reward."

 Quote: james biggs

... on the heel. i have been working on this during our walks. when he strays off, i say "heel" and give a small enough correction on the leash to put him back in line. when he is walking perfectly beside me, i will click. ocasionally after a click, i will reward him with a treat, or some play. i assume im right up to this point.

I see a few things to consider here. You are giving empty markers, if I am reading this right. "ocasionally after a click, i will reward him with a treat, or some play."

The marker (your click) means "Correct! Reward coming!" That means that if you give an empty marker (no reward following), the marker loses its meaning. You will later phase out constant M&T (mark and treat), but not to where you give empty markers -- you will start reducing the M&Ts, not just the T.

It's important to me that the marker is very clear, and that its meaning ("Correct! Reward coming!") not be compromised. You will use the same marker for everything and forever, so you don't want it to be weakened as you train this command.

I'd head for my nice no-distraction area, where you probably do not even need a leash, and then try this: Get loads of tiny treats in your left hand (or your bait bag) and the clicker in your right hand. Start with him standing in heel position. Lure him into position if needed. Now step off, praising enthusiastically, and take ONE STEP, then mark and pause in mid-step to reward. Take ONE MORE STEP, same thing. Now two, and continue to PAUSE to deliver the reward (and keep them tiny -- no chewing interruptions :grin. Note that there is no command word at this point.

Stick with TWO STEPS for now. Name the command only when it's the way you want it (as with all marker commands).

Post back if this is unclear, OK? It's easier to do it than to type it.

James, have you watched either of the LB marker videos? (I can point you to the "chapter" you want, if you have Power of Markers.)



P.S. I know that you will get more guidance, too. Many folks on this board do marker training. I really think you'll be very happy with starting over, using M&T consistently, focusing on one behavior at a time with no distractions, naming your commands only when they are the way you like them (otherwise, consider this: you are meanwhile asking for something by name that you do not even like, and that name is now associated in the dog's perception with the unimproved action ).

All JMO, of course.

Ask away!