Jose Miguel Gome wrote 10/30/2009 06:58 PM Using a word marker vs using a clicker #255802 - 10/30/2009 06:58 PM
Jose Miguel Gome Webboard User Reg: 11-11-2008 Posts: 130 Loc: South Africa Offline	Hello people. What do you think about this? Why Can't I Just Use My Voice? Clicker training involves shaping behavior in small steps, identifying the behavior, as it occurs, with some kind of marker signal. Dolphin trainers use a whistle; dog and horse trainers have settled on the clicker. But couldn't you just use a word, like "good," or "yes," as a marker signal? And wouldn't it be just as effective? You can use a word—obedience instructors like the word "yes"—and it will work a lot better than treats alone; but it's not nearly as effective as a click. The evidence from dog training schools that have tried both methods suggests that dogs and their owners learn about 50% more rapidly when the marker signal is a click instead of the word "yes." The click is easy to hear; words are not. The click is consistent. Words vary from moment to moments and person to person, but the click never changes. The timing of the click is easy to recognize; even beginners can tell if they clicked during the behavior they wanted, or a little too late. But we can't seem to make that same distinction with a word. Maybe clicker classes go faster mainly because people's timing improves rapidly. People who are using a word just don't have the same chance to develop good timing. Finally, the word "yes" conveys a sense of social approval, not just to the dog but to the person saying "yes." What's the harm, if you are expressing positive emotion? Here's the problem: using a clicker, if you don't get what you had in mind, you just look for the next opportunity to click. Using a word, however, when you can't say "yes" you may feel frustrated and disappointed, and your posture may actually say "no!" The dog feels punished—and immediately the learning slows down or stops. Saving social praise for social interactions, and using a clear-cut mechanical marker signal that means only "you win!" to the dog, can speed up the learning and, strangely enough, remove stress and make the experience more fun for dog and owner too. Author: Karen Pryor Source: http://www.clickertraining.com/ Like my page about animal training https://www.facebook.com/TrainMePlease
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/30/2009 07:15 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Jose Miguel Gome ] #255804 - 10/30/2009 07:15 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Are you asking if the mechanical sound is more consistent and has shown in recent studies to speed up the marker-training process? I'd say the answer is yes. Some folks prefer not to to carry the clicker around and deal with it, the rewards, and a leash. OTOH, lots of folks (on this board, too) have started with verbal markers and then decided to go with mechanical ones -- and have even discovered that it's quite possible to use both, once the dog and the handler have the idea clearly established. I use both. It was easier for me to learn with a verbal marker, I think, but other people learned very easily with the mechanical one. I still lean towards using my voice with my own dogs, but now I usually teach others with a clicker. Have you tried one or the other?
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Linda Patch wrote 10/30/2009 07:19 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Jose Miguel Gome ] #255807 - 10/30/2009 07:19 PM
Linda Patch Webboard User Reg: 10-22-2009 Posts: 140 Loc: Massachusetts Offline	Quote: jose miguel gome and your posture may actually say "no!" The dog feels punished—and immediately the learning slows down or stops. Oh come on. The line above goes over the top of self-serving promotion. She has every reason to say clicker and only clicker. Obviously, Ed, Cindy, Michael, and others here would finally break into the highest levels of competition with their dogs if they used a clicker instead of a voice marker. Oh wait, they do compete at that level. Clicker training works, and I do use both clicker and voice, but to infer that is has some kind of magical power ticks me off. When I first started training Cali with a clicker, those magical powers eluded me when I would forget the clicker at home, and we were elsewhere to train.
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Dennis Jones wrote 10/30/2009 07:21 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #255808 - 10/30/2009 07:21 PM
Dennis Jones Webboard User Reg: 06-13-2004 Posts: 3389 Loc: Richmond Va Offline	I use voice, 'cus I never can find that damn clicker I set down a few moments ago or it goes thru the wash once or twice
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Geoff Empey wrote 10/30/2009 07:34 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Linda Patch ] #255810 - 10/30/2009 07:34 PM
Geoff Empey Webboard User Reg: 02-07-2007 Posts: 596 Loc: Ottawa Ontario, Canada Offline	Quote: linda patch  Quote: jose miguel gome and your posture may actually say "no!" The dog feels punished—and immediately the learning slows down or stops. Oh come on. The line above goes over the top of self-serving promotion. She has every reason to say clicker and only clicker. Obviously, Ed, Cindy, Michael, and others here would finally break into the highest levels of competition with their dogs if they used a clicker instead of a voice marker. Oh wait, they do compete at that level. Hmmm well that Pryor lady is right about your body language could mean something negative. I'm always aware of using body language (or not) while training my dog. Little things can mean a lot for a dog. I don't think it is self serving as the statement is correct. Dogs see things in black and white and they read their handlers way better than we can read them don't discount that. I see it all the time in my own competition dog.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/30/2009 07:59 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Linda Patch ] #255813 - 10/30/2009 07:59 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Linda Patch ... Obviously, Ed, Cindy, Michael, and others here would finally break into the highest levels of competition with their dogs if they used a clicker instead of a voice marker. Oh wait, they do compete at that level. They use clickers, too. (They use both.) But yes, of course, you're right: both do work. But the 2008 thesis that indicated a decrease of about 30% in training time and repetitions of reinforcements needed for the clicker over the verbal marker was pretty compelling. I'll dig it up.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/30/2009 08:19 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #255815 - 10/30/2009 08:19 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Jose, you can read about using both in Ed's eBook at http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf and in Cindy's Marker Training Q & A at http://leerburg.com/qamarkers.htm Example (quote): "If your dog already understands markers, then changing from a click to YES is not a problem. Merely start with a session of charging your new marker (YES) with something simple you know the dog will do. I’ve started a lot of dogs out with a clicker and switched them to a verbal marker quite easily." Here's that thesis about the reduced time using a mechanical marker: http://reachingtheanimalmind.com/pdfs/ch_09/ch_09_pdf_01.pdf P.S. It would be great to read about how the marker trainers on the board have decided which to use, or whether to use both (and when) ..... Linda, do you choose voice only when it's more convenient, or do you use them both pretty much interchangeably? Dennis?
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Dennis Jones wrote 10/30/2009 08:24 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #255816 - 10/30/2009 08:24 PM
Dennis Jones Webboard User Reg: 06-13-2004 Posts: 3389 Loc: Richmond Va Offline	again, my preference for is only due to oldtimers disease, and the fact I can do impromtu training anywhere.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/30/2009 08:27 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Dennis Jones ] #255817 - 10/30/2009 08:27 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Dennis Jones again, my preference for is only due to oldtimers disease, and the fact I can do impromtu training anywhere. Yeah, I have a touch of that oldtimers, too. So I use both. One of these days, I'll forget where I left my verbal marker and I'll have to use the clicker. So I have about 8 clickers .... somewhere .....
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Sheila Buckley wrote 10/30/2009 09:06 PM Re: Using a word marker vs using a clicker [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #255819 - 10/30/2009 09:06 PM
Sheila Buckley Webboard User Reg: 07-14-2007 Posts: 1243 Loc: Offline	Quote: Connie Sutherland So I use both. One of these days, I'll forget where I left my verbal marker and I'll have to use the clicker. LOL! After charging a verbal cue it occassionally slips out at inappropriate moments so though I don't forget the marker I forget that it IS the marker; for this reason I like the clicker. OTOH dropping the clicker before I mark and bending over to pick it up which causes a dozen treats to topple to the floor is probably not real effective either.....how in the world did my pooch end up trained at all? I do use both but started with a clicker and I do agree once the marker pattern is understood it is easy enough to switch it to something else.
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