I'm back with yet another question!

Some of you may have read that Conan has had intermittent diarrhea and coughing (we thought unrelated) for his whole life. We've gone through multiple diets, and the one he's on now seemed to work until recently. We haven't started raw yet and I will have to talk to our vet about it (he is pro-raw, yay!). His coughing is mostly associated with herding (every time) or very hard running (only sometimes).

Unfortunately we've had some news from the vet today. It's not bad news, exactly, just costly news. All of his blood work and fecal results came back negative, which is good, but now we still don't know why he's coughing (or has intermittent diarrhea). He had a chest x-ray that showed a fair amount of congestion. We're going to start him on a completely hypoallergenic diet (not sure the details of it) and have three other options. So far the vet thinks it's likely allergies or asthma. After being on the diet for some time, if he is still coughing (assuming his intermittent diarrhea and cough are associated) he may have a parasite that isn't detected by tests. That isn't likely, says our vet, because he doesn't seem to be suffering and is not malnourished in the least bit.

So we can do a powder diet flush to see if there are parasites, but our other two options are probably a better route. We can either have a trans-tracheal wash or a bronchoscopy. The trans-tracheal wash is MUCH cheaper, around $400-500 but it's results are not 100% accurate. The bronchoscopy is well over $1000 but the results are 100% accurate. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and ask more details about both procedures, to see if it would be more beneficial just to have the bronchoscopy. And even those will only be diagnostic procedures.. I'm not sure what our course of action will be after that. I looked into pet health insurance but his cough would be pre-existing and nothing would be covered.

Has anyone had any experience with either of these procedures? I actually feel very blessed that he isn't suffering at all, besides his minor discomfort from coughing while herding.

Maybe a silly question but.....if he only has the coughing while herding, does he need to do the herding? Is it possible to find another 'job' for him that will have less of an effect on his health? If it isn't the dust causing the coughing, it might be an exercise induced asthma that is causing the coughing. Many people have this, I guess that I never thought about a dog having it. Not all asthma is allergy induced. Good luck, I hope that he feels better soon.

It's time for a second opinion. IMO.

 Quote: Katie Finlay

.... His coughing is mostly associated with herding (every time) or very hard running (only sometimes). ... All of his blood work and fecal results came back negative, which is good, but now we still don't know why he's coughing (or has intermittent diarrhea). He had a chest x-ray that showed a fair amount of congestion. .... So far the vet thinks it's likely allergies or asthma.

Why is the vet not talking about congestive heart failure (of which there are several types/causes)? Or is he?

And why does the vet think that the diarrhea and coughing are related?


eta
CHF common symptom: coughing during excited or heavy exercise
CHF partial definition: congestion

Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/03/2009 02:12 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thanks Anne. We have him off of herding and any other really hard exercise. He's really active but if he isn't going to improve from the dust I'll look into agility or something else. Hopefully we can find something that works. I do know of another trainer with grass fields but she's not nearly as close, and we drive an hour already.

Unfortunately this is the second opinion, Melissa. Maybe we need a third!

He hasn't said anything about congestive heart failure. I'll ask him about it. He thinks the cough and diarrhea could be related because both are intermittent and have been around for the same amount of time. He isn't sure. We're going to do the hypoallergenic diet for 60-90 days. That way we can find out if both are allergies, if one is an allergy, or neither. The old vet treated him with antibiotics for giardia (which he tested negative for) and for upper respiratory infections. Both went away while he was on meds, but since it's intermittent anyway we don't know if they actually worked. And if they were bacterial/viral/parasitic, they shouldn't last this long without him being malnourished, lethargic, etc.

 Quote: katie finlay

He hasn't said anything about congestive heart failure. I'll ask him about it. He thinks the cough and diarrhea could be related because both are intermittent and have been around for the same amount of time. He isn't sure. We're going to do the hypoallergenic diet for 60-90 days. That way we can find out if both are allergies, if one is an allergy, or neither. The old vet treated him with antibiotics for giardia (which he tested negative for) and for upper respiratory infections. Both went away while he was on meds, but since it's intermittent anyway we don't know if they actually worked. And if they were bacterial/viral/parasitic, they shouldn't last this long without him being malnourished, lethargic, etc.

I sent you a PM. But also, what is the "hypoallergenic diet"? Is it by any chance something the vet sells?

Also, this: "That way we can find out if both are allergies, if one is an allergy, or neither" is completely inaccurate.

1. Food allergies make up only about 11% of dog allergies.

2. The best way to diagnose a food allergy is with an elimination diet.

3. A commercial (or homemade, or ANY) diet cannot possibly tell you anything about the far-more-common dog allergies to fleas and inhalant/environmental allergens.

4. Food allergies are not "intermittent." They cannot be intermittent unless the food the dog is allergic to is fed intermittently.

5. Food allergies in dogs do not present with coughing. (Other allergies, such as dust mites, smoke, etc. can cause throat or nasal irritation and coughing, but even those allergies do not usually present with coughing. But food is the one being tested ... ) (They also do not usually present with diarrhea, but a food sensitivity can. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2082&aid=143 )

There is so much wrong with the whole premise as stated that I can only hope the confusion is in the translation, and that all this is not actually what the vet said/meant.

http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:I66DRbK21fkJ:www.vetcares.com/images/pdf/2009-01-27_Coughing_Canine_Cardiology_Release_CARES.pdf+dog,+coughing,+most+common+reasons&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNGGwrb72z4gLe91YKDV8_EchFbCKg

and

http://www.2ndchance.info/cough.htm

 Quote: Katie Finlay

Unfortunately this is the second opinion, Melissa. Maybe we need a third!

Then I'd speak to a specialist, usually immunologists handle asthma and allergy related stuff. My initial thought after you described the symptoms is that this condition is neither of those. Along with that the scope isn't a diagnostic tool for either of those. I also can't see a need for a wash.

I can't read your vet's mind but at the point that they're just throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks it's unlikely that they'll stumble on the right diagnosis.

I sent you a PM reply, but I'll reply to this post here haha.

You could be right about the translation. But maybe not. He didn't say on the message what the diet was but it is the first question we are going to ask him. I was skeptical as well that the coughing could be food related but I thought he probably knows more than me. He could have wanted us to do the tracheal wash/bronchoscopy at the same time as the diet change. I know he isn't 100% positive they are related, but he didn't want to rule it out as of yet.

After talking to him today I will discuss a third opinion with Garrett. This is the only pro-raw/grain free diet vet we know of in Southern CA, and we've heard good things about him.

Thanks again everyone!