I am curious to know when the signs are clear to work a dog in defense. I have seen dogs getting worked in defense but have never done it myself. I know that all dogs mature at different rates. How do you know if a dog is fully mature to handle defense training. I would think that just trying it one day would be risky considering you could set back training if the dog wasnt ready.

Howard
After you have built a solid and strong prey drive and the dogs secure in himself then start working him defense with the helper adding a little more fight to the game, when he fights back let him win, and build on that until the dog will fight harder when the helper starts trying to resist. This is a if all things are perfect scenrio, teaching defense is usually a slow progressive part of bite training. Depending on the dog, unlike prey there is more of a chance that the dog could be ruined.

Either it breaks through avoidance or goes mad/too defensive.

What you said made sense Don. But how can you tell if the dog is too defensive? Is it a bad nerve issue then?

Prey, Defense, and fight are all drives. Some dogs have more defense than others. You then get into positive and negative defense. There is alot to it. I would suggest getting Ed's "First steps of defense" tape or DVD. Watch it many many times over. There is alot of info on there that will help you get an idea.
You first have to have a solid prey and bite development foundation as Don said. Then you have to look at the dog. Alot of the working line dogs mature late (mentally)...maybe close to full maturity around 3 years old. This is just an example of course. You dont want to go too hard too early.
You also don't want to go too late as a dog can get locked in prey and it will take a huge amount of "pressure" to bring out any defense.
Your overall goal is to get Fight drive which comes with the dogs genetics, experience and maturity and proper training. You have the forwardness of prey with the intensity of defense.
You must have an experienced helper that is capable of reading the dog and knows how to work a dog in defense.
Definatley get the video.

Howard,

Also, talk to your helper and ask him to describe the dogs when he works them. A good teaching (which is sometimes difficult to find) helper will explain what he/she is looking for, what he/she is doing and why.

Howard - But how can you tell if the dog is too defensive? Is it a bad nerve issue then?

A dog is too defensive when he will quickly go into self defense mode at the slightest or what he believes is a precieved threat. This can be the result of weak nerves, or mistakes in poor training. So you can make a strong nerve dog too defensive/bad through bad training or take weak/med nerve dog and slowly salvage it or make it a total wreck moving him too fast or making mistakes.

Some examples are he is biting good in prey drive but when moved too fast in defense he starts to pee on his self and avoid contact. Or just total stop bitting in prey or any thing.

Or he will turns his back and starts growling over his shoulder, (Watch out he'll bite anythings and anybody now (behind the lead or in front), legs, ankles, fingers, face, stomach and butt).

 Quote:

Originally posted by Don B. Ackerson:
Some examples are he is biting good in prey drive but when moved too fast in defense he starts to pee on his self and avoid contact. Or just total stop bitting in prey or any thing.

Or he will turns his back and starts growling over his shoulder, (Watch out he'll bite anythings and anybody now (behind the lead or in front), legs, ankles, fingers, face, stomach and butt).

Don, this is not helpful info at all. You are talking about such extremes it's ridiculous. He needs to know the SUBTLE signs of defense, so he won't push the dog into avoidance. If the dog typically is silent on the grip (which he should be) and he begins growling, that's sign of insecurity. He's uncomfortable and letting you know it. If his grip is normally calm and he begins chewing/shifting or biting shallower than normal, he's feeling unsure. If he swings his body off to the side, particularly if he avoids the stick arm, or pulls the sleeve around to the helper's sleeve side, like trying to pull it around behind him, he's avoiding confrontation with the helper and is feeling insecure. Watch the ears and eyes - they speak volumes about a dog's thoughts/emotions. Flattened back ears and low tail say nervous. Shifting eyes that glance at the stick arm a lot or even away from the helper as if looking for an open avenue of escape are sure signs that he's insecure. If he's on the pole or being held by the handler and he's not strongly at the end of the line,pulling, he's probably unsure. A defensive dog's bark will be deeper than a prey bark normally; if you're seeing every tooth in his head, he's way into defense and believes the threat is serious.

It's not a horrible thing when some of these behaviors crop up -it's only bad if the helper doesn't help the dog come thru his insecurity. You HAVE to push a dog's threshold for defense higher and higher, you can't avoid the issue or you'll never improve his ability to handle the stress. But you have to be attentive for these changes and recognize them when they occur and make sure you bring the dog thru to success; then he'll grow in confidence and his threshold for defense goes up. That doesn't necessarily mean backing off the dog who shows these signs; if you back down to these behaviors,you actually strengthen them cuz they "worked" for the dog - he was successful by using them. That's why it takes a talented helper to tread that fine line between defense and avoidance - to keep the dog on THIS side of avoidance and get the dog to keep trying and to let him win when he is offering desirable behavior.

During normal dog training it is always best when introducing defensive behaviors to the dog that seems to need this work that you place the dog in a situation where it OFFERS UP DEFENSE not where the decoy illicits it through direct confrontation.
This is a subtle difference and is often done through changing environments, lighting, positioning, equipment, etc. You want the dog to perceive that it did this onits own and surprise!!! it works.
If you see it being done in the course of normal dog training through pushing the dog to where drive falls and self-defense picks up in a confrontation between the decoy and dog it is often simply being done poorly.
There are situations where this is done purposefully...dogs that are so locked into prey theyand are of exzcellent nerve may need to be pushed, or dogs that have been worked in self-defense and allowed to fail may have to be pushed to get them to realize that it does work, but these are rare and extreme circumstances and are basically repairs left to very expereinced decoys.
The balance of how much work in this arena is dependent on how much prey the dog is diplaying, maturity, expereince, and the amount of fight drive the dog diplays. In a perfect world this work would be unnecessary as the dogs would possess extreme fight drive. Defense drive is a substitute for well balnced prey and fight drives and not always the best substitute.
The work in defense is also balanced based on the intent of the trainer. Some people feel that a dog showing 80% prey in te sport is perfect, others want a somewhat different balance. Police dogs should be low in defense as selected and only brought into defense as an experience unless addressing some particular issue.
Some sport people like a different balance and some might tilt the balance based on a need for better guarding in the blind or away from defense due to lousy grips.
But, in an ideal world we wouldn't need it at all if the dogs all had excellent fight drive and good prey drive, and a litle sharpness (don't confuse sharpness w/ self-defense here).

Lee that was a bit extreme but I think if you get anywhere close to those reactions, you pretty well f$%$% up a otherwise workable dog. Ending its career as a protection dog.

I guess I was working from the statement on the training tapes to be careful with defense because you can screw a dog up, if you make a mistake or go to fast, through poor training/bad helper. You can end the career of working dog.

You guys gave signs that are more workable and probably more likely to happen when training the average med-low level stressed dogs.

Howard & Lee Sorry for being so extreme. What I was stressing was don't try working defense with a young dog unless you have a very competent helper/trainer.

Kevin I enjoyied reading your post, Howard was just sitting here waiting until I gave my 2 cent.
Now he got $50 worth of information. And I got $150 from both you and Lee's more general, ground floor and class room setting explainations. Some of this made light bulbs go off and turn dots into straight lines in my theories, of how things work. The small signs and why, what and how to look for. Enhancing what I think I know, about this topic. This will go into my training scrap book.

See how things work, If I keep this up. I'll be rich.

have enjoyed following this thread , and am learning a lot . lee , your post revealed a lot of observation/learning .
howard has not indicated his interest in his question : is it for your own dog , or.....
the big lesson i'm getting from the advice posts is : if you don't know what you're ( really ) doing , get some ( good ) help , from someone who does !