Hi,
My name is Mark and I'm from Europe. Excuse me my long post, but I'd really like to share every information available so that maybe someone can help me, I'm desperate. I have 4 dogs, two at my parents house (golden retriever & labrador) and two at my girlfriend's, both staffordshires. We don't have any problems with the bitch, she's nice and calm, a bit too shy I should add; probably that also has something to do with the problem that I've been fighting with for 3 months now: the male, now 1.5years old, is extremely aggressive with other dogs. It doesn't matter if it's a bitch or even a puppy, he wants to fight with each and every other dog.

I watched every Leerburg video I could get (the one on dominant dogs more than one time) and went to school with Nero, trying to use the techniques learned from the videos + what the teacher says. We've been using the prong collar for about 2 months now, Nero's getting used to it :-( That means that he doesn't really care about it anymore, his aggression drive against other dogs is so high that no matter what I do he just keeps attacking.

He was 6 months old when we first noticed this behavior, then we neutered him when he was 8 months old, and it's getting worse by the day since then. He is in a big garden with us with the bitch he grew up with, we often take them to walk or to swim in the nearby lake, and though they didn't go to "dog kindergarten" they met quite a few other dogs when they were puppies. The girl acts normally when other dogs approach her, but Nero VERY hard to handle.

He loves people, never hurt anyone; his aggression is just against other dogs.

I love my dog and I'm trying to do everything I can to teach him how to be "normal" so we can walk him without fear; that is why I'm asking for help here. I asked my friend to record a few moments of our 8th visit to the dog school, and I put it up on Youtube so you guys can see too. He's getting a little (but very little) better after each training session, but with this pace I think it would take 4 years for him to forget about aggression... and even then I don't know if I would trust him off leash with other dogs around. :-(

Youtube video of Nero

I'd appreciate every suggestion/tips/advice you have, I'm really desperate now. Thank you in advance. Mark (& Nero)

Hi,

I could not get it to buffer, so I saw only a couple of minutes. This isn't what I would do (muzzle him and flood him with a group of dogs up close).

I'm sorry I can't view it. Is it a basic obedience class?

I am no expert but I wanted to mention a couple of things in the video that would definitely set off my dog.

First is that a prong collar he is wearing for corrections? If so I have found that the prong while great for walking nicely tends to escalate my boys aggression it can push him over the edge from posturing to trying to attack.

The other thing is the horribly close proximity to the other dogs, some of whom are aggressing back when he is near them.

This in my opinion will likely only reinforce his aggressive behavior and cause more problems down the road.

I would start with working at a distance from other dogs where he can be calm and focused on you to work on basic obedience with lots of positive reinforcement and slowly over days weeks or even months work my way closer to the other dogs.

There is also a good chance you will never be able to really trust him around other dogs, but you can get his focus and obedience good enough that he will be controllable with the proper management.

Edited by Jennifer Lee (11/16/2009 02:02 PM)
Edit reason: grammar and clarity

I was able to view the video just fine and I agree with Connie.

Taking him around 15 other dogs that are completely unbalanced themselves is not going to help your dog out any.

He needs to be trained first under low distraction to solidify his commands using marker training. Find out what his favorite thing is whether some sort of toy or food and use this to build his commands up.

Then find someone with a truly balanced dog that won't react in any way to your dogs behavior, maybe there are one or two in a higher level obedience class or maybe try your local schutzhund club. Use a balanced dog to work on proofing your commands.

When you are around the balanced dogs, work your dog with the other dog in a heel or down stay. Start with solid commands and reward him for ignoring the other dogs and for paying attention to you.

Start from far away and slowly move closer over a few months...don't try to cut corners to speed things up. If you take it slow you will be able to circle the other dog in a down stay and not have your dog react. This excercise should take months, not days. If at any time your dog loses attention of you or exibits his very clear signs of reactivity, then you need to move farther away until he can re-focus. Over the course of a year to a year and a half, if you do this right, then you should be able to have more control over your dog even if the other dog is reactive.

Thank you very much for your comments! I never though about that this way, and to be honest I was trusting the trainers when they said it would be the best to try to "neutralize" him against other dogs by walking him there and working together with other dogs.

Connie: yes, basic! You could try loading the video a little bit later, I think Youtube does have hiccups sometimes (for me too).

 Quote: mark gavalda

... I was trusting the trainers when they said it would be the best to try to "neutralize" him against other dogs by walking him there and working together with other dogs.

Connie: yes, basic! You could try loading the video a little bit later, I think Youtube does have hiccups sometimes (for me too).

Yes, it worked the second time. I did not have to watch a lot to confirm the first impression.

I would not do this, in this way, ever again. But no need for me to post details because there are better posts than I could make ahead of this one. You are getting good, solid advice.

I really like what Niomi points out: "Start from far away and slowly move closer over a few months...don't try to cut corners to speed things up." So tell us what you know about marker training, and we can tell you how to do upbeat sessions on the outside of his reactive area to start desensitizing. (That class was "sensitizing," IMO. And in the most unstructured, anxiety-producing way.)

e.t.a.
We have all (on this thread) been there. My own experience with my dog and others' dogs who were like yours is oddly in sync with Niomi's: a year to eighteen months was about how long it took to see really good, reliable results. But that should not deter you, because there is also measurable progress in spurts all along. (It's literally measurable, as you slowly, over weeks and months, decrease the distance between your dog at work and another dog.)

There is nothing like putting in the work (and most of the work is, at bottom, doing fun upbeat stuff with your dog) and then having your dog walk right past a strange dog, focus on you, marching right along.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/16/2009 03:58 PM)
Edit reason: eta

I also agree with the above. Flooding is not the answer. Too many dogs all over the place coming at him from all directions in that class. Not a wonder that it is too much for him to deal with. I will also mention that it appeared to me that several times you were peting (rewarding) the dog right after he attacked another dog. This is telling him that you approve of this behavior. I also noticed that he seemed to be more focused on atacking the shepherds & a couple of the big dogs, more so than most of the other dogs, big or small. I thought that was interesting. I would guess that this could be for a number of reasons. My female is dog aggressive after having been attacked several times. I am very careful with her around other dogs. (she is fine with her own pack members) She has improved, but I always keep my distance, especially with dogs that I don't know. Many owners think that their dog jumping up onto another dog is a sign of their dog wanting to play...NOT the case much of the time. It is a domanince display. Good luck with your dog. Patience & time are your friend.

Looked at it again & there were a few times that he was neutral to dogs that went by...that would be a great time to reward him. He did seem to react to a couple of the other big dogs, but the shepherds seemed to cause the most reaction. It could possibly be those dog's individual energy or presence that he reacted to. He may never be truly reliable around strange dogs & you will need to be vigilant, but you will hopefully be able to at least pass by dogs without all the craziness that you have now.

Thank you very much everyone for your answers! I really appreciate taking the time to watch the video and reply. I'm sad and happy at the same time. Sad because I should have realized sooner that this training was not the best way and happy because I think it is the nick of time stopping this nonsense. I also got a response from Ed, basically confirming what you all wrote. I will have to use a completely different approach and _I will_.
The prong collar was an advice from the certified trainers in that school, so was the flooding with other dogs, and petting him so that "he can calm down" was also a suggestion, which I didn't do for 7 sessions but on the 8th (which was recorder) the instructor strongly suggested even after I explained that I saw completely otherwise in a video of a US K9 instructor (Ed). Should I even say that it didn't work?... These trainers are friendly and they care about dogs and I do believe they can do wonders with golden retrievers and breeds like that but I think it's clear that they don't know how to handle an aggressive dog.

So basically what I should do know is train him basic obedience away from dogs first, then I could go closer to others step by step over a period of months. Ed also suggested a remote collar, I will read more about that too. Also he mentioned that the prong collar is not a good choice here, the nylon slip collar would be a lot better because it won't stimulate the aggression in the dog even further.

I've got a dog who has reacted very much like the OPs dog on several occasions. Baby steps are what have really helped him.
I taught a default behavior that I highly rewarded. For Kipp it was lay flat on the floor with his head between his paws (he know begs that way - it's pretty funny) Then I gradually increased distractions and gradually added in dogs at a distance and then closer. It has been a long process, but very worth it!! I was realizing just how far he'd come a few days ago when we were walking 10 ft away from a crated barking dog and he just walked by with me instead of going all cujo.

Teaching a default behavior did two things, first it gave him a coping mechanism. Instead of going nuts he could lay down and get rewarded for it. Second, it gave me more confidence in working with him. I had a plan, and I knew as long as I kept him under threshold it would work. So I was more relaxed and confident. Once he figured out he could do something besides go crazy around other dogs I could ask more and more of him and he'd do it.

A couple months ago I added another dog and I wondered how it would work as he still was not fond of dogs close up or in his space - he'd get tense and nippy. I rotated them in and out of crates for a few days, but since both were highly food motivated, I'd sit on the floor with a bowl of kibble and reward them each for laying calmly on either side of me (using Kipp's default behavior). I did it several different evening while watching TV - they'd both get their entire dinner piece by piece. It worked like a charm. It was a familiar routine for Kipp so he got in "chill" mode pretty quickly laying next to me. The more he relaxed,the more he let his defense mode down and pretty soon he realized she wasn't a threat at all. They started playing with each other a couple weeks ago and it put a big smile on my face.