A while back I took my dog to do some bitework with a Schutzhund trainer. Right from the get go the trainer said my dog showed avoidance. I told the trainer that I thought my dog was simply showing him some respect, not avoidance. My dog went on to bite him very hard several times.

After my dog was done I put him up and hung around to watch him do some bitework with some Schutzhund dogs. These dogs happily went onto the sleeve, never let go and seemed quite at ease. Eventually the dogs were outed and strolled off the field.

My dog has done a lot of real world bitework whereas he is in a fight and has taken some punishment from the decoy. But he's always hung in there to "win" and has never fled.

Now I realize PP training and Schutzhund may be two different things. Although I think this trainer trains both the same way.

I gave an analogy to this trainer and I'd like some of you to tell me what you think of it. A young fighter who has only sparred and has never taken a punch probably can't wait to get into the ring and has high confidence, maybe like an untested Schutzhund dog. Whereas a prize fighter who has been in some fights gets into the ring confident in his abilities but still respectful of his opponet, perhaps like a good pp dog that has gone through some difficult altercations.

A pp dog that can't take a punch/kick is no good. But there's only one way to find out, and that's to do it. Once a dog has gone through this a few times it must be understandable if the dog does not view the bitework as a completely stress free activity. But a dog that knows he's going to take some shots, and does, but will still fight is a good dog. And I'd much rather have a pp dog like this than an untested Shutzhund dog that's never taken a real shot from a decoy.

There's plenty of you here that will forget more than I've ever known. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. Thanks.

A long time ago a trainer told me something very useful. He was watching some of the dogs we had trained and trying to do schutzhund with. It was very early in my training career and we were training with a local PP trainer. While at a seminar the schutzhund trainer said a simple thing without trying to insult us. He said I can do anything with a bold confident dog. I cannot with the dog that is on the edge.
Training experiences such as "real world" sort of decoy work have their place in PP, LE, and Military disciplines, but they should be EXPERIENCES not trainig philosophies. This may seem a bit subtle but really it is not.
I badly want to see a happy working dog when I go select dogs for police work. Yes, I look for a serious edge, but the dog that is serious all the time cannot handle the pressure of the work over the long haul. Especially the control work. They may bite like monsters but part of that is due to the fact that they are always out there working on edge.

Hey Russell,you bring up an interesting point.I plan on training my male to be a serious protector as well when he gets older.I adhere to the idea of him always winning,only as his maturity and confidence grows he will have to FIGHT(which to me is an attitude)the helper harder,and harder but I don't believe the helper needs to actually kick and punch the dog every week in training to get the desired result.I believe there are many other things you can do physically and psychologically to a dog that will leave no doubt that this dog will fight to the end without beating/abusing them.But thats only my opinion,I would be interested in knowing if PSDs are subjected to fullout body kicks and punchs while training for patrol work?There are also reputable professional protection dog companies,where you leave your dog and the pro's give you a finished product(if you have that kinda money)but I don't believe they kick and punch your dog to do it.Anyone else?

Russell, I think it's all in the dog, foundation, training, and confidence are great, but if it is in the dog it will come out - regardless if the dog is schutz or PP trained. I train both and feel I can learn much, from both.

Well, I know some might not like this approach but if you have a serious need for a pp dog and need to know if the dog will take a shot and still fight, then you have to dish out some punishment. But it needs to be done in a way that will not, hopefully, injure the dog.

Now I don't suggest training like this all the time, in fact, very infrequently. Otherwise I think you'll get, as Kevin alluded to, a dog that is on edge all the time.

Part of the reason my dog is like that, to a degree, is because he wasnt' trained in the traditional methods.

But Kevin, even if you take a typical pp or schutzhund dog that's been trained under the traditional methods and then put them under stress on an ongoing basis, might that dog too become "on edge" all the time?

I am very interested in this subject and would like to hear from the experts or anyone who has tried both methods,anyone else?

Well. Stress operant training, only becomes a negative if the dogs had not been pre-paired, protection dog training and schutzhund training is two totally different things, but yes the schutzhund boys have been successful in training police dogs, by doing defense after they had built the dog up.

Schutzhund training was designed to test a dog to see if he can work. A standard test was designed and it became a sport, if your dog did well you could start breeding, and would get registered as a breeder of working dogs.

Well at least that’s the way I understand it, where as protection dog training has its routes in police, military and protection work.with proetion dogs the whip comes out from the word go, the dogs get more work done on defense, the calm bite is not a serious consideration, rather a dog that bites hard and firm, and wrestles, yes there is a lot of kicking and fighting with man work training, no bark and hold, a straight attack is the norm, but yes with sh they bring this in, as protection work.

I would rather work a dog that goes wild, on the sight of a agitator that a dog that looks like a wet towel on a lead in the same scenario.

There is a time and place for everything, including requiring the PSD or PP dog to take some physical punishment and still fight.

You did not mention the age of your dog, and this would certainly figure into the equation along with the fact that this was a new field and a helper he did not know. I think Kevin hit the nail directly on the head when he said that these things should be "experiences" rather than philosophies...just as with slick floors or other unstable footing and dark, close rooms, etc.

If the dog has the WILL to bite and fight, you can teach him many things, but, as with the young man, you bring him along...not simply dump him into the "deep end of the pool" to "see if he will fight"! (I don't think Mike Tyson would be a good choice for his first match, do you?) The dog must develop his skills and experience first, and must always have a place where he can feel comfortable in his bite work...one you can bring him back to quickly after a little stress. That "place" is the prey bite.

A knowledgable and experienced helper can fairly easily run the vast majority of younger and/or sport trained only dogs completely off the field if he so desires, but what does that "prove"? Almost any dog can be put into avoidance if that is what you wish to do...you would be amazed at what a pair of swim fins, a cape and a gas mask will do to even the toughest old street dog's nerve the very first time he sees them being worn by a strange helper in a new place! Even squirting water from your mouth into the dog's face will do it for many sport trained or "green" dogs. If the dog hesitates because I squirted water in his face for the first time, does this mean his temperament is "weak"? Answer...no, not based on that fact alone. He must learn he can overcome such things and win, but this takes training. After two or three times, water or swim fins will be "no prob man" and the bite will be back where it was before.

To deliberately try and make heavy stress during protection a routine thing for a dog is to, far too often, end up with a bag of nerves with a hair trigger in every situation...not my idea of a good PSD, PP or Sport dog. There are much better ways to accomplish the same thing...assuming the dog does not have weak temperament.

If the goal is for the dog to take punishment and continue the fight, then the way to do this is the same as with all other training...incrementally. (The same way you eat an elephant, right? One bite at a time!) A really good helper can give more stress with his eye contact and body language than many can with a whip or stick. (They also do a better job of acting than many Academy Award winners) Begin at low level(s), stress the dog very...VERY...briefly, bring him right back to prey and he wins. The first few times, this progression happens so quickly that by the time he recognizes the stress, it is over and he is winning. Maybe once per session and not necessarily every session. Any PSD trainer can also confirm the benefit of allowing the dog to run the helper off under leash tension and encouragement from the handler...stress...prey...chase...dog wins because helper disappears. Build from a good prey foundation, add stressors as he grows in experience and confidance, and if the dog has solid temperament, he will be fine.

Does it work? Well, I have seen several PSD's that were started young as Schutzhund dogs, then retrained and worked as PSD's from about 16-20 months that could...and, unfortunately did...take stab wounds and gunshots and continue fighting, and to the best of my knowledge none had the s#@t kicked out of him every training session...in fact, very little actual physical stress was ever applied. Most were also completely trustworthy in a room full of 6yr. olds, and would just give one of those goofy grins and move away if the kids got too rough. Guess somebody was doing something halfway right huh?

Nice post Mike.

Thanks to everyone, and especially Mike. That all makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />