 Prong for Fear Agression?
#259196 - 12/11/2009 09:01 AM |
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My boss is having trouble with his (adopted) 8 month old female Sharpei/Lab. Apparently she pulls like crazy, but the major concern is that she lunged at someone at the park recently. I lent him a prong collar to give him more control on walks, but recommended to start with the dead ring first. However, he is worried that because she is terrified of everything, she'll lunge and pull (w/ the prong on) and end up hurting herself. Are prong collars a bad idea for fearful dogs? I don't want to give him the wrong advice. Let me know what you think. Thank you.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Kristen Shepherd ]
#259226 - 12/11/2009 12:52 PM |
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My boss is having trouble with his (adopted) 8 month old female Sharpei/Lab. Apparently she pulls like crazy, but the major concern is that she lunged at someone at the park recently. I lent him a prong collar to give him more control on walks, but recommended to start with the dead ring first. However, he is worried that because she is terrified of everything, she'll lunge and pull (w/ the prong on) and end up hurting herself. Are prong collars a bad idea for fearful dogs? I don't want to give him the wrong advice. Let me know what you think. Thank you.
Any chance of the owner joining the board? There's a lot here -- more than prong or no-prong. JMO.
Have you seen the dog?
I'm sure others will see the post too. And WELCOME to the board!
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#259231 - 12/11/2009 01:34 PM |
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Prongs are great for dogs that have a momentary lapse of control creating a dangerous situation for the dog and handler. I've never seen a dog with a properly fit prong manage to hurt itself in a correction. I have seen a fair number with improperly fit and used prongs get hurt however.
http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm Please make sure that this collar is fit properly and get a backup. I also suggest he gets this dog a basket muzzle for walks.
Ideally as Connie mentioned, your boss will join the boards. Even better would be your boss joining an obedience group in your area and learn the joys of positive learning for a dog like this. I have one fearful dog that I've owned since 9 weeks old. He has been a challenge to teach but we manage his behavior and make improvements by small pushes a bit at a time.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Melissa Thom ]
#259238 - 12/11/2009 02:57 PM |
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If this poor dog is truly terrified of everything then a prong will only give her another reason to fear. If this dog is that bad then it will be a problem no matter what; however if the dog is only terrified of specific things than it is possible to bring her out of it somewhat depending on her past experiences, her current relationship with the people and animals she's living with and the abilities of the trainer to be able to work with this dog in some good OB. This dog must be worked multiple times a day either with markers and or in drive as much as possible.
The problem with dogs like this is; even a verbal command can unintentionally cause this dog to retreat inside itself. If the dog has drive then work it in drive and don't even speak during your training sessions. This dog must experience relationship in a proper way to have a chance at normalizing according to it's genetic potential.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Michael Reese ]
#259263 - 12/11/2009 06:55 PM |
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I'm not sure if he'll register or not, but I did print him out a few ebooks and training articles.
Thanks for the info.
I have not seen the pup yet, however, I told him we could meet at the park at some point so I could see her (hopefully tomorrow).
So far, I basically know that she does get a lot of exercise, but she pulls until she pukes (she's on a martingale collar now), she spooks very easily, she is fine with other dogs and doesn't lunge at people in the house. He does try to calm her down by talking to her and petting her when she is nervous, but I told him to just ignore her and to have anyone that comes over to ignore her as well. Now I am wondering if that was incorrect information b/c in the "Aggressive Dog" ebook, under "Fear Aggression" Ed states to "calm it down" by picking it up or kneeing down - I thought by doing that you are actually feeding into/rewarding that particular behavior, but I could be wrong - that's why I wanted to make sure.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Melissa Thom ]
#259265 - 12/11/2009 07:02 PM |
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Prongs are great for dogs that have a momentary lapse of control creating a dangerous situation for the dog and handler. I've never seen a dog with a properly fit prong manage to hurt itself in a correction. I have seen a fair number with improperly fit and used prongs get hurt however.
http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm Please make sure that this collar is fit properly and get a backup. I also suggest he gets this dog a basket muzzle for walks.
Ideally as Connie mentioned, your boss will join the boards. Even better would be your boss joining an obedience group in your area and learn the joys of positive learning for a dog like this. I have one fearful dog that I've owned since 9 weeks old. He has been a challenge to teach but we manage his behavior and make improvements by small pushes a bit at a time.
Yea, I printed that article and stressed the fitting of the collar a million times. He is supposed to try it out this weekend. I also supplied him with the rubber nubs to help him with adjusting to the switch (he's worried about hurting her). I also mentioned that he won't be giving corrections so he won't have to worry, and that it was just be like using a regular collar, only he'll have more control.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Kristen Shepherd ]
#259295 - 12/12/2009 05:50 AM |
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Kristen, you could suggest to him to try it out on himself first, to ease his mind.(like, on his calf)
Also, ideally he is not putting the dog in a position to be overly fearful when on walks.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Lynne Barrows ]
#259356 - 12/12/2009 08:20 PM |
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Kristen, you could suggest to him to try it out on himself first, to ease his mind.(like, on his calf)
Hahah, yea I did. I even tried it on my wrist too.
Thanks again for the responses/advice.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Kristen Shepherd ]
#259376 - 12/13/2009 12:10 PM |
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I have not seen the pup yet, however, I told him we could meet at the park at some point so I could see her (hopefully tomorrow).
Good. Seeing is so much better than hearing someones description. Especially if the person doing the describing has little knowledge. The picture they paint can often be very distorted.
So far, I basically know that she does get a lot of exercise, but she pulls until she pukes (she's on a martingale collar now), she spooks very easily, she is fine with other dogs and doesn't lunge at people in the house.
She sounds like with the right handling she could improve considerably. How much is "a lot of exercise"? I find that what many pet owners think is plenty of exercise is often barely adequate or far less than adequate.
He does try to calm her down by talking to her and petting her when she is nervous, but I told him to just ignore her and to have anyone that comes over to ignore her as well. Now I am wondering if that was incorrect information b/c in the "Aggressive Dog" ebook, under "Fear Aggression" Ed states to "calm it down" by picking it up or kneeing down - I thought by doing that you are actually feeding into/rewarding that particular behavior, but I could be wrong - that's why I wanted to make sure.
I haven't read the book so am loathe to comment on whether he is right or wrong as I don't know in what context that advice is offered. But generally, doing anything to try to "calm" a dog down while they exhibit nervousness; is not the best choice. So I think your advice was probably right. By calmly facing, or ignoring (depending on the situation), whatever is triggering the dog's reaction; you convey that you have everything under control and there is nothing to fear.
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Re: Prong for Fear Agression?
[Re: Lynne Barrows ]
#259378 - 12/13/2009 12:31 PM |
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... ideally he is not putting the dog in a position to be overly fearful when on walks.
Ditto!
We don't know anything except second-hand (and first-hand is, as far as we know, an inexperienced owner).
If this is serious terror, then Michael Reese gave great advice:
"If this poor dog is truly terrified of everything then a prong will only give her another reason to fear. If this dog is that bad then it will be a problem no matter what; however if the dog is only terrified of specific things than it is possible to bring her out of it somewhat depending on her past experiences, her current relationship with the people and animals she's living with and the abilities of the trainer to be able to work with this dog in some good OB. This dog must be worked multiple times a day either with markers and or in drive as much as possible."
But we don't know.
We can't advise when we don't know whether it's really even fear.
If the O.P. sees the dog and can evaluate, that will help.
I really recommend the owner signing up here and/or getting professional help (and/or checking out some LB videos and articles).
Meanwhile, I would urge the owner to choose less scary (or exciting, if that's the real case) routes while he develops his bond with the dog and does basic ob and focus work. Second-hand advice that goes beyond this is risky.  We don't know enough.
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