I could certainly use some help with this one. I have a 2.5 year old lab mix, Brody; male, neutered. From early on he has shown signs of dominance and territorial agression so I started working with him right away. Got a trainer, dedicated myself to using leerburg techniques, etc. He's pretty good 95% of the time. I can take a bone, food, etc. We can walk in the park on the leash he is the perfect gentleman, he will greet others dogs appropriately, sniff and allow them to sniff (although his body language does get a little stiff at this point but no signs of agression, more excitement) he'll even play nicely for the first 5 mins or so. Then the trouble begins...At that point he'll find something, anything to "guard" a stick, a hole, anything. When the other dog near him, Brody will become agressive and start a fight. I really want to try to correct the behavior and not just avoid it. He seems to love other dogs and want to play. I have been taking him to the dog park on slower hours with my other 7 yr old lab (she is very sweet, no issues there) but I keep him on the leash. He is a little exicted but otherwise fine that way. Dogs can come up to him and again he is approriate and friendly and wants to play. Any thoughts, feedback, suggestions???

Hi Michele,

Welcome to the forum! I have to ask why the need to put your dog in the position of starting fights, guarding, etc?? Since you know this is an issue with Brody, my suggestion would be to never again take him to a dog park or let him off the leash near other dogs. :-) Find a safe enclosed area (tennis courts?) and throw balls, train and wear him out AWAY from other dogs. You are putting your own dog as well as all the other dogs in a position to become seriously injured...

Michele, I second Barbara's advice, and you're likely to run into a lot more agreement on it with a board that has this kind of experience. Your dog doesn't need to be flooded with the presence of strange uncontrolled dogs, and "correcting and not avoiding the behavior" is a matter of working with the dog outside his reactivity zone with very upbeat focus work, desensitizing him to strange dogs.

I believe strongly that what you're doing is prodding the aggro behavior into escalation.



e.t.a. Welcome!


Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/09/2010 11:26 AM)
Edit reason: eta

Barbara,

Thank you for your feedback. The reason feel the need to put him in social situations is because it seems as though he really wants to socialize. Upon greeting he is sweet, almost submissive yet excited to meet another dog. It feels like his excitment reaches a level that triggers the agressive side of him but I don't know enough to be sure. I feel that the agression is a bad behavior that should be corrected. Avoiding the issue seems to leave a door wide open for distrust and unpredictablitly. I want to be able to feel confident I have control of his behaviors. Of course I NEVER want to risk the well being of ANY other dog or most importantly Brody. I've been very lucky and never really owned a dog with his nature so I understand I have to adjust my thinking and step up to the challenge. Aren't all dogs social animals and don't they miss something when they are not able to socialize?

Connie, Thank you I appreciate your feedback. Please expand on your comments about working with Brody outside of his reactivity zone and desensitizing him to strange dogs. That seems to make alot of sense but I thought the desensitzing him to strange dogs is what I was trying to do. I certainly do NOT want to prod the unwanted behavior. But if he is never in the situation where the behavior occurs how does he learn it is unecessary or unwanted?

I don't know why people insist that their dogs should be friendly & play with every dog that they meet. I hate dog parks & the mentality that they create! Dogs are social to dogs in THEIR OWN PACK. Their are some exceptions to this, but for the most part true. Do you see wild canines socializing with ones from other packs...no they KILL THEM. They should be able to remain NEUTRAL, but not have to be friendly. My female is dog aggressive & is fine as long some jerk of an owner doesn't let their dog get up in her face. I also am very vigilent in trying to prevent this from happening. But there are many people that own dogs & have not knowledge or control of their animals.

Hi Michele,
I think Brody would be just fine with his own pack, you and your other dog and your family. I agree with Anne! If you study wolf behavior you would see that they don't intermingle with other packs.. Humans think dogs think like other humans.. couldn't be farther from the truth... Dogs think we think like them, and they consider us as "other dogs" If you want to work with Brody around strange dogs, set up a time to walk with someone who has a dog, don't meet and greet, just start walking together,dogs on leash, and as you walk the dogs should start to form a pack... I have done this with one of my dogs who is a cujo to strange dogs.. and by golly it works!! I am thinking that we wouldn't take our children and drop them off on a neighborhood that is full of weird people in the middle of the night and expect them to make friends... yikes!! So forget the dog parks and get some friends together to walk the dogs.. that way, you get some excersize and bond with your dog... (:

Hi Michele,

I'll give you my thoughts but Connie is far more experienced, so if her advice is different than mine - don't hesitate for a moment to listen to her!

I think it is we humans who think dogs need dogs more than they really do, and it is perfectly normal to think this. They are pack animals, and yes, they are very social animals too. My suggestion would be to try and start thinking of YOURSELF as Brody's pack and playmate - not just his owner/feeder/back scratcher. There really is a difference. Unfortunately what might be happening in Brody's case is that as excited as he is to be around other dogs, it is triggering in him the desire to be alpha and call the shots, and truthfully, that is your job. (Falcon (my GSD) doesn't need a strange dog to help him figure out his role in life - he needs it from me! To be honest, I have to work at this daily; it does not come naturally. My husband has "it" without thinking about it, but I have to keep it foremost in my mind when working / playing with Falcon or he would very nicely walk all over me.) And if you think about it, wild packs of dogs don't go play with other packs of wild dogs - they fight them. For territory, food, etc... A good pack leader would never just take his "pack" to go play with the wolves on the other mountain... you know what I mean? It is easy for us to assume that all nice dogs want to play and have fun, but they don't look at it that way. They are immediatley trying to figure out who gets the toys and who gets none...who gets to eat first and who has to wait... who gets the female, okay, you get the idea... :-)

"Upon greeting he is sweet, almost submissive yet excited to meet another dog. It feels like his excitment reaches a level that triggers the agressive side of him but I don't know enough to be sure." Good for you to realize this... I have yet to learn and recognize all the subtle signals dogs send each other when they are willing to play or getting ready to fight; even the most experienced dog handlers can still miss some of the most subtle signals, and in a blink of an eye - you have two dogs determined to be alpha and all heck breaks lose. Doesn't it make sense that if we can't recognize or don't know how to interpret these subtle signals, that we avoid putting ourselves and our dog in that predicatment? Add to this the fact that many owners who take their dogs to those parks (with exceptions of course) do so because they don't want to take the time or effort to exercise their dog themselves and just use it as a place to let their dogs blow off steam. These are normally the same folks who put little or no effort into training, which compounds the situation... (Just picture a bad fight with several dogs going at it and no one able to recall any of the dogs).

Instead of putting Brody in the situations where he tries to become alpha, you might try working with him at home or in quiet areas using marker training. (Tons of free info on this site and a great dvd if you care to purchase that). Daily. In addition to making sure he gets more than enough exercise as well. Don't worry about having him around other dogs right now, just build up your relationship with him so that he looks to you as the boss and has a great time in the process. Little by little you could then start working him near other dogs but NOT in the dog park. Teach him that even when you are around other dogs - he still gets great rewards for listening to you and for interacting with you. I honestly think that if you think of YOU as the pack leader/provider of all things fun/trainer of new and exciting things/endless supplier of yummy rewards, Brody won't give a hoot about the ill mannered creatures on the other side of the fence.

How funny... I was writing a long winded response while Anne and Lisa said it better in a nut shell... story of my life! :-)

 Quote: Michele Davico

Connie, Thank you I appreciate your feedback. Please expand on your comments about working with Brody outside of his reactivity zone and desensitizing him to strange dogs. That seems to make alot of sense but I thought the desensitzing him to strange dogs is what I was trying to do. I certainly do NOT want to prod the unwanted behavior. But if he is never in the situation where the behavior occurs how does he learn it is unecessary or unwanted?

Desensitizing is gradual. It starts at the edge of the dog's reactivity zone. Only very gradually is the action moved closer, and meanwhile you have been doing such absorbing stuff with the dog that other dogs have fallen into a kind of background noise. I know that sounds oversimplified, 'cause it is.

As Anne says, for me, the dog has his social life within his pack, and strange dogs are just neutral to him.

 Quote: Michele Davico

It feels like his excitment reaches a level that triggers the agressive side of him but I don't know enough to be sure. I feel that the agression is a bad behavior that should be corrected. Avoiding the issue seems to leave a door wide open for distrust and unpredictablitly.

That excitement level is dialed back with the desensitizing work. Excitement is not something that I immediately construe as happiness.

Desensitizing isn't avoiding the issue. For me, a huge shift in thinking that benefits many folks is the shift to the POV that the goal of socializing is to de-escalate the anxiety and reactivity that the dog is showing to everyday encounters, while eliminating the kind of in-your-face meet-and-greets that a dog park presents. My dogs happen to have a couple of dog friends, but I'd be just fine if they did not, and I'd feel the same way with one dog in my house or with more.

How long have you had the dog? One big factor in everything we're talking about here is how the dog perceives you. Does he perceive a pack leader who protects him from anxious situations and who fully engages him? This contributes to his confidence and calmness in scary or overwhelming situations.

JMO, of course. There are some nice detailed threads on desensitizing here; I could dig you up a link or two.