Greetings to all, This is my first post to this group.I have a question I would welcome all comments on. My dog Ki recently died at 14, I trained him using the Koehler method. He was as close to a perfect dog as I could have wanted and never was on a leash unless I left him outside at a store for a long time. I was thrilled to find Leerburgs Basic Training video as I thought it would be a superior training method with my new dog friend, Frankie. By the way Ki was Chow/GSD and Frankie is Chow/?, both came from the Shelter. When I bought the video I also purchased PURELY POSITIVE TRAINING, by Sheila Booth. Ed states in his catalog that they do not sell training books they don't agree with. Well she doesn't seem to agree with his training methods. I think her book is beatiful and I would love to use it to train Frankie. Finally heres my question. Frankie has very high prey drive, is 1 1/2 yrs old and needs some real work, although he is a dog worthy of my beloved Ki. Has anyone experience with Sheila's methods? How well do they work on older dogs, with high prey drive and little former training? (Also, Frankie is NOT an Alpha dog). Do you think I'm better off using E.F.s Basic Obediance? And why. Thank's to all. John Miller

No one can tell you what path to take when training your dog. The nice thing about educating yourself with as many different methods as possible, is that YOU get to choose which ones you want to apply to the style of training that suits you best. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Myself and several club members tried Sheila's methods and none of us were able to produce a working dog through her methods. One club member, very dedicate, put two entire years into trying purely motivational training with zero corrections on a dog - it was later sold as an agility dog, and it never was fully reliable under distractions.

Most upper level handlers actually train via a "fusion" method, using a little tech. here, and a different tech. there. You see the "Flinks" method, the classic "Koehler" method, the "Dildi" method, and a ton of mixtures of those types. Rarely does anyone train in a pure method of a particular trainer.

Shelia's method could work for the right trainer with the right type dog. But that same dog could achieve the same results in much less time using a different training method.
This is just my opinion, but it's based on my real world observations.

Rambeau,

you guys just did not try long enough!!!!
Case in point, a few years back my wife was reading one of the purely positive - no correction lists, and several members had posted things like "Eureka, its been 5 years and the dog is beginning to ignore the mail man".

The list was full of people full of pride about how they tuffed it out for 3-6 years of nothing but positive reinforcement and now they were finally STARTING to see it work. It was funny and sad at the same time. Some people are truely cult like in their training methods and they get such self satisfaction and self gratification for not "punishing" the dog, either it never dawns on them, or they just don't care, that the dog is going through much more punishment in 5 years of freaking out over the mail man than it ever would have if they had corrected it a few times and solved the problem.

I will say it again, there are lots of cults and cult like followers in the training world. Now the does not make all of the training techniques bad, but a strange fixation on just one method, especially when it is not working, is a sign of the kind of people that should be avoided.

I may be over simplifing, but what I'm seeing is , "click or YEAAASSS" to teach and reinforce a skill, and prong or E collar to insure compliance or correct for totaly unacceptable behaviour IE bolting out the gate, chasing critters or letter carriers. Am I missing anything else for basic obedience?

I have to say that I've had good luck with my GSD with positive methods. I have to say that at one yr old, he still has a big, wiggly Golden Retriever type attitude (with me) and is extreamly responsive. The word purely is where the differences are. I rarely have had to make any kind of correction other than a simple little fooey or ahhh, but I will have no hesitation in raising the level if and when he needs it. I also believe there are dogs out there that would tell you to F--- off with these methods.

let me add, My gsd is a wuss, I clicker trained him and for correction he got a short sharp NO, and very little leash pop. I had to be careful, he would look like I just horse whipped him if I say No to loud.

I think it's important to read up on many different methods, because every pup/dog is different and it just adds more 'tools' to your training tool box with the different methods. And, frankly, if I can get my dog to sit reliably using the clicker and a toy, why not? But if I can't get my dog to stop pulling on the leash, then I have no qualms about upping my training methods to begin putting the prong collar on the dog.

I like starting at the lowest levels, doing it PROPERLY (why the reading/classes help) and if my dog doesn't seem to be progressing with that method, I can then try something else.

I love the clicker. I love the prong. And I have had to use the e-collar with my 2 GSD's and their 'I love to chase the deer' issues. And I love the e-collar that ended up giving me an absolutely reliable 'come'.

My biggest 'problem' with purely positive training is that sometimes the handlers think that means no corrections or consequences for 'bad' behavior for their dogs. And so taking YEARS to teach something is considered an ok thing for them. Positive training (done properly) is NOT permissive.

Yes! Thanks for all of your feedback. This was just the kind of help I wanted. I've been working with Frankie and he is responding to PPT well except in a couple of areas. I think the fusion of styles is the way to go here and based on this one dog and what works with his temperment. I plan at this time, (which all of your great feedback helped me understand for myself) to use PPT and Ed's Basic Obediance. I feel that with this I have come a long way from the Koehler method that I used so successfully in the past. Evolution here, mine especially as a trainer. I think for me the benefit of Shelia's method and Ed also is that it's about the relationship and not the leash so much. I have grown and become a better human being because I train dogs. How amazing! Thanks to all of you who replyed. I appreciate your knowledge and experience. One thing in Shelia's book that struck me was she said wait one extra day before you go to corrections and see if you really have fully tried to understand the situation.For me that means I need to take the responsibility to think here and not just react. Thanks again,jm