Hello to all!!! I guess i will start what is sure to be a somewhat longwinded thread by giving as much background about myself and my dog's environment / training and then transition to my questions. I lead a rather active lifestyle (trail running/hiking/biking etc) and wanted a dog that could easily keep up with me while doing these activities. I ended up choosing a blue heeler after a lot of consideration b/c my wife wouldn't have a dog heavier than 45 lbs or so... i did a fair amount of reading up on the breed etc and was somewhat prepared i would say but definitely quite surprised at the tenacity, activity, and stuborness these dogs have when i got my pup. At my house is myself, my wife, and my brother.

currently our puppy is 13months old and we received him as a pup at 8 weeks from a breeder up in oregon. he is pure bread and has all the paperwork...after reading/listening to some pod casts and articles on here i realize we didn't quite do all that we probably should have done to completely establish our "pack" leadership and that is probably the route of our problems...but that will be discussed more later...

we had chewy in group puppy class since 10 weeks and have had some form of training with him since then. the class did focus quite a bit on using food as a motivator and chewy is definitely VERY food motivated....however the class never really moved away from using food...at about 11 months or so we started doing agility as well and have since stopped the obidience classes...the agility is held in a large field that has three separate fenced areas for different levels of dog/lessons...

at about 6 months of age or so chewy started really acting out. when we would go on walks, he began getting really agitated and pulling / barking like mad at cars that went by. eventually we were told to switch to a prong collar. now this stopped all pulling etc pretty quickly however, chewy found another way to take out his aggression. he began getting amped up as a car would go by and then would turn rather violently onto the leash and start thrashing it around like mad!!! he basically had no concern for what was in his way when he went for the leash!! we had no idea what to do with this and one suggestion was to redirect his focus on a toy...well he would definitely go for the toy but it was still pretty hard and would rebite like crazy and let go when he was ready... my wife and i had no idea how to deal with that and eventually we ended up (dont' hate me for this please) using one of those three week board and train classes for him

well he did come back a much calmer dog and the biting the leash thing stopped while we went for our "followup lessons" at the facility. however when we returned home, he quickly started doing it again on our walks. of course when we return back to the place he really didn't do it. eventually he did respond to it and the trainers way to handle it was to move the leash up and down and side to side hard to get him to let go and then give him real strong corrections and have him lay down.

now the last 3 months or so chewy has been excellent on his walks and once in a great while would make a move to the leash but as soon as we told him out and gave a couple pulls he would let go. recently i have started jogging with him now that he is 13 months and he absolutely loves the trails!!! so much so though that when we get there he is a whineing barking excited dog that won't listen to me or be quiet and is so amped up to run that if i make him heel and keep reversing directions when he tries to walk in front he has started the biting the leash thing again and once again it is pretty violent.

unfortunately he has caught my finger when it was near the leash end and also caught my wifes arm. hard corrections on him don't seem to phase him and he shrugs them off though he usually doesnt bite again after that. with the running he won't run by my side at all and for the first 100 yards or so pulls a bit but eventually he settles and then runs ahead of me but doesn't pull the leash.

i have begun considering having private lessons from a few people here in thousand oaks CA and they run 100$ an hour.

i bought a dogtra e collar and right now am just putting it on and off him to get him used to having the feel but not using the e part of it yet. i ordered the dvd pack on here dealing with ecollar and two other dvd's and those are set to arrive on monday.

so after all that my basic question is what would be my best course of action? my gut feeling is that i need to establish a more sound pack leadership with my dog as i probably have a pack leader struggle with him.

that said, should i still consider private lessons where they come to my house or the trails with me?

what should i do if he bites the leash like he has and how should i handle it and correct him?

i realize we have probably made quite a few mistakes raising our pup and i am open to constructive criticism and advice.

thanks for taking the time to read this and feel free to ask any more questions that you may have!!!!

John

You and your wife need to do some sort of NILIF (nothing in life is free) or pack structure program with this dog. I get the sense that you see this at one level, but haven't really made the mental adjustments for it. With the pack structure you should be able to avoid the heavy corrections. Those will be really counterproductive, especially with a cattle dog. You can screw up the bond. with age of dog and your inexperience I'd work on the structure of the relationship first, before many corrections.

Is he neutered? If not it is a bit late, but worth considering.

You are getting close to the point where you can exercise him a lot, another few months and you can up the kms, get out on skis with him or hike. I find that longer walks or hikes get the dog more used to being a follower than a leader, as well as just tiring out the dog and settling him.

I would play lots of games with toys and use them as positive rewards for good behaviour: for example, have him walk at heel or behind you, mark it, and reward with a ball toss or food.

cattle dogs find ball and tug rewards to be really motivating, and satisfying. If you do this in a structured way, and with no free rewards, you'll help the dog learn to focus, and give him a good outlet for biting and chewing. it is my sense that when the dog is given a positive way to bite, then the correction or redirection for leash bite or handler bite will make more sense to the dog. best be sure the redirection doesn't turn into a reward for leash biting... someone else can address this issue, i've never had a leash biter...

It is far cheaper to join a dogsport group and to get support and advice than to sign up for lessons. It also forces you to take responsibility for becoming a dog trainer. sounds like you need to get there.

dvds such as the michael ellis series here, the balabanov pair, and the greg derritt agility foundation series provide insight, technique and inspiration for becoming a good trainer and a true leader for your dog.

My cattle dog used to really like the one on one time with me: often in the car. It settled him. Does your dog get to relax with you?

I would be slow and cautious in your use of the ecollar. don't use avoidance methods. useful tool for extinguishing behaviours that need to go, in my experience corrected without inducing aggressive response in my cattle dog.
I used the leerburg protocols on the pet owners ecollar dvd and was very satisfied. requires good obedience and a basically sound relationship with your dog to work well in advance. I think you should do the basic structural work on your relationship with the dog before much ecollar.

good luck. rewards are worth it with a cattle dog... so your wife thought a 45 lb. cattle dog wouldn't be a lot of dog...she better rethink that one! AM

there is no doubt in my mind that we (wife and i) still have a ton to learn and more than willing to do so!!!! it is quite apparent that we really havent structured the pack leader quite right and i do feel that i am starting to be counterproductive in my having to really correct him. he absolutely loves to play ball and loves frisbee and LOVES tug!!! i worry that tug though isn't helping the cause...when we play if i say "out" or "drop" calmly, he doesn't really respond, but a firm out and he lets go...i can say leave it and put the tug infront of him and then wait a bit and say "okay" and the plays again...

however when we play frisbee or soccer, he gets the toy brings it back and won't let go until he is absolutely ready... or we reach for the collar and he knows it is time to let go.

i know these dogs need a lot of play time so we walk 45 min to an hour in the morn and then 15 min at lunch i play and then at night we do an hour or so of running or ball playing out side on a 100' line etc and then inside the house we will play ball on and off during the evening.. however it really is getting bad with the leash biting when we try to run etc.

i just got back from a mile run...when i stopped it wasn't enough for him so he started whining and barking and then bam right on the leash and i had to basically lift him in the car before he finally let go. grabbing the scruff does nothing ....

as for the bonding, i have to believe he has a strong bond to my wife and i... whenever one of us is gone and the other is home, he will constantly go up to our room looking for the other or go to the front door and wait to see if we come back...when we see him morning afternoon or night we are greeted with ears pinned way back and whole butt wagging and he walks circles around us while we pet him.... if we hide and ask "wheres chewy" he will cry and howl if he thinks we can't see him....and if i say "wheres mom" or she says "wheres dad" his ears pin back and he goes looking for us etc... not sure if this represents a strong bond or not but i hope it is on the right track...

i appreciate the response and look forward to more advice...

esp on what in hell to do when the leash biting happens and what steps to start with to prevent it

thanks,

John

Do basic obedience with him. Sounds like a normal dog to me. When he starts going all hannible on something, make him sit or down or whatever. I use the other method on my youngest who every once in awhile decides the leash is a tug: i smack him in the teeny brain and tell him to knock it off, lol

unfortunately when he gets crazy on the leash like he does, there isn't a command he listens to at all....drop out down sit nothing...he is completely in prey drive mode and nothing seems to get his attention...he rebites like crazy etc....its kind of a scary site to be honest and somewhat embarrassing when neighbors see it ....

I have the feeling that you really didn't have a clue as to what you were getting into by choosing to live with a Heeler.

This is a perfectly normal Heeler. One thing you don't mention, unless I missed it, is biting at your heels and legs. So, if he's not doing this (at least not yet), count yourself lucky. My sister has a Blue Heeler/Border Collie mix. They require very firm but fair handling and consistency is of utmost importance. Put him on a very strict NILIF program along with daily basic obedience training. If you're even thinking about using an E-collar make sure you get expert advice on doing so correctly. One source would be to contact a "Sit Means Sit" trainer.

I'm also willing to bet that he's not getting enough exercise, either physical or mental. Obedience training and nilif will both give him mental exercise as well as some physical. But he needs more, at least 2 hours a day of physical exercise such as playing fetch, or anything else that requires him to run at his pace. Agility is excellent. Flyball could be good exercise as could herding lessons.

ive been trying to find a flyball place around us but can't seem to locate one....

chewy only goes for ankles when we are running around and he starts to chase us but even then it doesn't happen all that often..we did keep him from doing that as best we could when he was young...

we do agility but only once a week and even then he has taken to not paying attention to jumping etc and as soon as he is off leash he loves to chase the other dogs that are in the other ring running up and down the fence barking at them and not coming back to us....

he absolutely loves the agility though..

we try and run him quite a bit now and play hide n seek with treats in the house and play ball and tug constantly in the house etc.... im sure he can use more exercise but i feel we do get him out about 1.5 to 2 hrs a day plus the ball n tug in the house...

the "NILIF" program is something i think we need to do with him so suggested reading/videos would be appreciated... as for basic obedience we practice sit, stay, down, stand, back, etc in the house all the time and even with hand signals for sit stand and down... we definitely need to practice the heel n come/recall a ton more...

speaking of heel and walking etc, when we are on a walk and we have him in "heel" he tends to keep inching his way forward...we were told to give him a small "pop" on the prong collar and reverse direction then turn back etc.... repeat each time he moves ahead of us.... however if we "ok" him to let him be relaxed etc, can he walk ahead of us? should he never be ahead of us?? while running does the same rules apply that he is never ahead of us??? if hes ahead we won't let him pull the leash though ...

thanks again for the advice... i absolutely love this breed for its sheer tenacity and smarts... he is fun...but frustrating at times as well

http://leerburg.com/302.htm
http://leerburg.com/308.htm
http://leerburg.com/219.htm

I don't have them (no player)but I've heard good things about these DVDs. For nilif,Google nilif or nothing in life is freeand you'll pull up a wealth of information. The first few items are usually the best ones to read.

If you give the dog a break it's ok for him to walk in front of you as long as he's not pulling (or going ballistic) on the lead and as long as he'll return to heel once the break is over.

btw, power walks where the dog is required to heel with no sniffing, marking, tugging, etc. are excellent mental and physical exercise.

Comments in reply to your your 2nd post:

1) Michael Ellis dvd on tug has a great amount of detail on release command for toy. I'm sure if you google this topic or ask specific questions here you will get lots of advice on how to get a dog to release: several different techniques. also on balabanov dvds, in the ecollar dvd for pets, probably dealt with on the flinks drive and focus dvd, no doubt the agility folk deal with this issue. lots of ways to do it that avoid a conflict or correction with your dog. part of becoming a good dog trainer.

2) On bonding: A year or so ago I spent a week holding a cattle dog that ended up in the local pound, while its eventual owner worked out the details. This dog on my very first walk stayed within a radius of about 1m. This is innate cattle dog behaviour. Often it is also an expression of dominance. I have no doubt you and your wife have an amicable relationship with your dog, but the form of that is something you can work on. I am betting he initiates and controls many of his encounters with you. a cattledog should always go second through a doorway. He should always sit before the leash goes on. whenever a car goes by he should sit or lie down. very big thought adjustment here.

When I watch the Ellis tug dvd I am struck by the calmness and stability of Michael's personal dog Pi, who is a high drive and dominant malinois. this is something that can be the result of consistency and development of relationship with a dog. Ellis is the most inspiring dog trainer I have ever seen.

3) on exercise: mile run? I would take my 2 year old cattle dog on 40km mountain bike rides. I did an 85km hike with him with only a 6 hour bivouac for rest. no problem for this breed of dog. I find mountain biking good as surfaces are soft for dog and you can max out the dog now and again (just not on downhills). Where I live I skijor with my dogs, this results in a very good workout for the dog over a short time span: ie 30 min to an hour.

4) you play frisbee: this dog should never get a frisbee throw without doing something to earn it, that you mark, and then reward with the frisbee throw. when he releases the frisbee you should mark it and reward with food or another immediate frisbee throw, often for a short distance, or toss up in air.

reply to third post:

on playing ball and tug in the house:

I'd try to control the initiation of this game. do it on your terms, not his. I'd keep the toys away so you control when they appear.

on petting: I'd not pet him when he imposes himself on you, as tempting as it is. I would disengage, then a few seconds later re-engage. I would call him over for petting (if he ever leaves you alone).

on the "inching forward" while at heel: ecollar can help but no rush on that.

I know some say never let the dog go in front, it has always been my practice to keep the dog walking behind me (as opposed to heel) when control needed (in my case blind turns and hills on country roads) followed by release.
hope this helps.

rgds amay