Hey. My puppy is going to be 12 weeks old tomorrow. I've had him since he was 10 weeks and he is a Dogo Argentino. The hope is that he can work in Schutzhund. For the first few days I never gave corrections, and since then have only given corrections for a few things such as biting my face, trying to get into my other dog's crate and peeing right before going outside. When I first got him I was able to pick him up by the scruff and he didn't mind at all. But once I began to correct him he would growl and try to bite me. It seemed that shaking him by the scruff only made him fight harder, so I just held him still by the scruff off of the ground, and eventually he calmed down. I'm a big guy so there shouldn't have been a problem of not shaking hard enough, although I am a little worried about hurting him by shaking.

Today when I was taking him outside he peed right before we got to the door, I said no (which he generally responds to well, without any fear) and picked him up by the scruff to stop him from peeing. He immediately started whining/growling and bit my arm. At that point I shook him, and he only got more intense, like he was fighting me. He was biting at my arm and bit my jacket. He sounded totally rabid. My correction didn't seem to be working so i put the puppy on the ground on his side and just calmly held the side under his ear like a bite. This seemed to work a lot better.

So my questions:
Should I be giving any sort of corrections if he pees on the floor? Picking the pup up like that has always worked for me before.

Is it possible to hurt or scare the pup by shaking him too hard? He didn't pee outside afterwards, but somewhat reluctantly played with me back inside.

Should I lay off corrections during the fear imprint stage, once he is 12 weeks?

I wouldn't be correcting this puppy at all, especially in the ways you are describing and for the reasons you are giving. I would never handle a puppy that roughly at all.

It sounds to me like you are putting him in a position where he feels he needs to fight for his life, and so he is. He is actively defending himself from you, and doing so at 12 weeks. This can destroy your relationship with your dog fairly immediately, so I would seriously reconsider what you're doing here and start over from scratch.

For puppies, biting needs redirection onto something 'not skin'(toys, tugs, etc.). If he is tethered to you or at least dragging a leash, he can't get into another dog's crate. If he pees on the floor, it's because you didn't get him outside soon enough. None of these behaviours are unusual or unexpected for a puppy. It's your job to TEACH him differently, in a way he understands, that doesn't involve violence.

If he's on the defensive from you and doesn't trust you, he can't learn from you. Never, ever, ever correct a dog for failure to comply with a behaviour you haven't even taught them.

Everything should be fun and positive in a young puppy's life, and it should be a time that you get to know each other and build a trusting relationship through positive, upbeat learning experiences.

 Quote: michael pugsley

When I first got him I was able to pick him up by the scruff and he didn't mind at all. But once I began to correct him he would growl and try to bite me. It seemed that shaking him by the scruff only made him fight harder, so I just held him still by the scruff off of the ground, and eventually he calmed down. I'm a big guy so there shouldn't have been a problem of not shaking hard enough, although I am a little worried about hurting him by shaking.

Dear Lord, I hope you're not serious, but I think you are. I can't even comment on this. Reread this yourself a few times and decide how YOU think it sounds.

 Quote: michael

Today when I was taking him outside he peed right before we got to the door, I said no (which he generally responds to well, without any fear) and picked him up by the scruff to stop him from peeing. He immediately started whining/growling and bit my arm. At that point I shook him, and he only got more intense, like he was fighting me. He was biting at my arm and bit my jacket. He sounded totally rabid. My correction didn't seem to be working so i put the puppy on the ground on his side and just calmly held the side under his ear like a bite. This seemed to work a lot better.

You think this worked? I think the poor thing just gave up.

 Quote: michael

So my questions:
Should I be giving any sort of corrections if he pees on the floor? Picking the pup up like that has always worked for me before.

If he's peeing on the floor, it's your fault. Take him out ten minutes before you think of it. ;-)

 Quote: michael

Is it possible to hurt or scare the pup by shaking him too hard?

You've got to be f***ing kidding me.

 Quote: micheal

He didn't pee outside afterwards, but somewhat reluctantly played with me back inside.

Gee, reluctant, eh? I wonder why.

 Quote: michael

Should I lay off corrections during the fear imprint stage, once he is 12 weeks?

If you keep going the way you're going, his whole LIFE is going to be one big "fear stage."

Yikes. Please, please, for the love of God, reread what you have written and see how it sounds to you. For this puppy's sake, you need to totally reevaluate how you treat him. He is going to grow up to be big and strong (like you are now) and you will have a dangerous animal who doesn't trust you on your hands, and you will have caused it. Sorry to be harsh, but I don't see any other way to say this. Maybe since you're so close to the situation, you're not looking at it objectively. I hope that's the case.

FWIW, your dog's temperament sounds just fine-for now. I have a feeling you're well on your way to changing that.

I don't have much to add to what others have said (except maybe it's a little mild), but as for the peeing before he gets outside, I'd be trying to figure out whether he was fear/submission peeing or simply forced to wait too long before going out. Both are handler problems, of course. Neither is something to correct for (and I would not call it correction; what you are doing is punishment. Punishment for peeing. Not to mention the other unwarranted punishments you're administering).


Please reread the posts above mine. Please ask if you aren't sure how real potty training is done. Ask about anything.

But PLEASE don't keep on the way you're going. You're going to ruin this puppy, not just your relationship with him.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

...(and I would not call it correction; what you are doing is punishment. Punishment for peeing. Not to mention the other unwarranted punishments you're administering).

I would go so far to say it's not punisment; it's abuse. Shaking a puppy? Hard enough you have to ask if you can hurt or scare it by doing so?!

 Quote: Connie

But PLEASE don't keep on the way you're going. You're going to ruin this puppy, not just your relationship with him.

Read this over and over, Michael.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something here. I'm pretty sure in some of the articles on this site there are suggestions that using corrections and a bit of physical force can be a good way of clarifying who is in charge.

This is just one example from "Teaching Your Puppy the Meaning of the Word No":

"At a very early age when a pup goes near a child it should automatically receive a firm "NO" command followed by a firm shaking by the nape of the neck."

I don't see why it's unwarranted to correct a dog for biting too hard, or on the face. And how this equates to abuse?

Not that I'm saying you're wrong, that's why I'm asking your advice. Would you say no corrections until a certain age? And that pack structure work will prevent him from biting me during a correction in the future? I don't want any harm to come to this dog, that's why I'm asking you all here.

Michael, it's all in the execution. Shaking by the nape of the neck means one or two small, controlled shakes, actually something I'd call "scruffing" instead of shaking. What you're describing sounds horrible- that's why I said you need to reread it and see how YOU think it reads.

Shaking a puppy to the point where he's fighting you FOR PEEING is abominable. I guarantee you that nowhere is it suggested you shake a puppy hard enough or long enough that you need to be worried about causing injury or scaring them. Corrections should be swift and be over very quickly, and they should be warranted. Biting a child and peeing on the floor do not warrant the same correction.

Hi Michael

Jenni and Connie are correct here. You need to be a fair pack leader! Keep your puppy on leash and don't let him bite your face or get into things you don't like.

Your puppy is learning right now. If he starts to bite you, then carry a small tug around and just redirect your pup's bite.

Pick up the water at around 7PM or so, and give him plenty of potty runs (depending your pup) so there are no accidents in the house!

Ed has two excellent puppy videos, well worth the purchase

 Quote: michael pugsley

....using corrections and a bit of physical force can be a good way of clarifying who is in charge.

There are much better and much more effective ways of establishing yourself as "in charge" than use of physical force. It's the difference between respect and fear: Respect is earned by being fair and consistent. Establishing fear is what bullies resort to because they are unworthy of or incapable of earning respect.

If you are looking to establish basic ground rules for a new puppy try these: Your Puppy 8 weeks to 8 months
and : Establishing Pack Structure

 Quote:

I don't see why it's unwarranted to correct a dog for biting too hard, or on the face. And how this equates to abuse?

Corrections are for situations where the dog knows exactly what's expected, has shown consistently that a trained behaviour is well-established in many different circumstances, but chooses to disobey anyway. OR they are for outright rank issues. Not for puppies. Puppies bite because it's part of being a puppy. It's your job to teach the puppy what it's okay to bite. It takes patience and consistency and time.

Good training starts with positive teaching methods, with corrections used very sparingly, if at all. I say "if at all" because some dogs never require a correction. There is at least one person on the board who did all of his Schutzhund training without using a single correction (blanking on who, but that is TOO COOL). Corrections aren't a bad thing, but are not the foundation you want to build your training on.

Try this: The Power of Training With Markers