I'd be interested in hearing opinions on cross training for personal protection and schutzhund. I just watched Ed's "Training the personal Protection Dog." Anybody here introduce leg bites on a leg tug and use the suit early on, while still training scutzhund protection with the sleeve. It seems that if you have a dog that you can introduce the leg tug and bitesuit to, while also working on sleeve work, you can add a degree of reality and stress to the protection, that is harder to do with training strickly on a sleeve. On the protection video, when the helper slipped the leg tug or the sleeve, there seemed to be more emphasis on having the dog calmly holding his prey where it was slipped rather than having the dog carry the prey in a small circle. Carrying in a circle seems to misdirect the dog away from the real threat which is the helper.

Thing to remember is all dogs are different along with the trainers and owners.
Ok, with that said....My dog is trained in personal protection. Has been for over 3 years. The only problem with transferring him to SchH is that his aggression toward the helper is real, not a game/fun play. Not that I think SchH dogs wouldn't really protect their owners, just saying. Once the helper gives him the sleep, he spits it out and goes right for the helper again. I ask myself, why would I want to correct that for SchH, the most important job is for him to protect me, not for SchH. It may be easier for a dog to be SchH trained 1st, then transfer to P.P. And now that he is soon to be certified dual purpose, I'm more pleased with this accomplishment than SchH.
Adkins

Hi,
I have to agree with Brandi, if you want a dog for p.p train him for it, if you want a dog for Sch. train him fir that. You don't want a p.p dog in the sch ring going for a leg bite. If you really want a p.p dog and also want to compete, then I would suggest that you enter your dog into a fairly new sport called psa, http://www.psak9.org this sport is more sutted to p.p. dogs. Sch dogs are also welcome to join in. If nyou have any questions about this sport feel free to ask me any questions.
Angela

Patton wrote: "if you want a dog for p.p train him for it, if you want a dog for Sch train him fir that."


Wrong wrong wrong wrong

If you want a dog that will protect you, train for that within the Schutzhund context IF you want to do both. You can train a serious dog in SchH and he'll take the work seriously. Then you transfer that same seriousness to protection. (in my opinion that is how everyone should be training)


The evidence is there that it can be done, look at the many many dogs that are both active police service dogs as well as SchH competitors. Itor Op de Hyde is the first one that comes to mind, Bernhard Flink's dog.


My chief interest has always been personal protection, but I try very hard to train my dogs in a manner that prepares them for that while I try to title them in SchH. You can do both, there are just a few things I would wait to do till after you title.

It isn't as easy as doing one or the other, but if it was easy everyone would be doing it and there would be no challenge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't like the "Schutzhund is only a sport" crowd. IMO one should be training for Schutzhund always with the goal of the dog being able to work both on and OFF the field. If the dog can't do it for real, why bother.

Schutzhund IS a protection sport. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chip,
I think you can train for protection or multiple dog sports, but it takes an exceptional dog, which is rare, and exceptional trainers, who are even more rare.
I have a serious dog, and there are several board members here who have seen him in action and can vouch for that. He'd make a better patrol dog than a sport dog, but I intend to train him straight in sport to Schh III, then start training in ASR ( American Street Ring ) for training that has more real world value.
You might check out that venue, I've done dog sports for a long time and this is the closest sport ( but it's still a sport ) to police service work that I've observed.

Vancamp is correct here. If a dog is genetically capable of doing personal protection work there is no reason that it cannot be trained in sport work and personal protection work.

Nothing against the PSA work. If people wish to get involved with it more power to them. But it should not be looked at as the sustitue from Schutzhund for those that want to do personal protection.

Hello Vancamp,
I wasn't saying that you can't cross train, just saying that it's essier and less time consumming to train for one. If a person really, trully wants a p.p dog, then why take the time to train for sports? If a person really, trully wants a sports dog, why train for p.p. If a person wants both they better be prepared for alot of training and cross training. Besides, I don't want to see any decoys gettind accidental leg bites from properly trained p.ps :rolleyes:
Besides I know alot of people who do have cross trained dogs, I have one myself. The only diffrence is that the sport I train for is psa, a sport that is made to test the ability of p.p dogs and sch dogs. Didn't mean to upset anyone <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> , just stating my opinion, although it may have been a little stupid <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Angela

My male is trained to SchH3, and is capable of PP. I wanted to finish his 3 before focusing more on PP, but his training all along hasn't been just sleeve training. He's very clear headed and controllable, and I think to get a dog that shows power in the sport it needs to be more than "just a game". Alot also depends on temperament. He has very good prey drive, but has always been focused on the man.

Sue

I agree that a good dog can be trained for police service work, while competing in sports at the same time. The two are so different IMO, and I think dogs(such as Itor mentioned above)can distinguish the two pretty easily. That's why you'll never see him go for anywhere but the sleeve at a schutzhund trial. On the street though, it's a whole different ballgame for this puppy.

I wish that Schutzhund was as realistic as personal protection or police type work, so that we wouldn't be forced to cross-train. It's a lot of work.