I have a stubborn boxer who is almost 3 and pretty reliable on most OB commands. Im having lots of problems getting him into a down so that I can reinforce that`s what I want. I have tried luring him but his butt always pops up. Im not strong enough to force him into it. I`ve sat there with pressure on his neck for almost 30min once and he still wouldn`t go down. It takes my 2 brothers and me to get him into a down. Once he`s down he gets treats, praise, and the pressure off his back but is this really reinforcing it? Is there something I haven`t tried that might work with him.

I don't know what methods you use as far as corrections/rewards, so I have put some simple tips using positive methods.
Try practicing the down from a sit position. This way his butt is already on the ground. If it comes up, ask to sit again then lure into the down. From what you say, he sounds difficult, so you might want to try a jackpot reward when he finally gets it(the first few reps only). Keep your training sessions short and end on a good note. Once he's doing good with a down from a sit, ask for the down from the stand.
Keep your hands off of him as much as possible. He will start to rely on this as part of the command, which will lead to another thing you have to fade besides the lure.
Don't lean over the dog too much while training the down either. He gets used to you standing over him. When you back up to teach him distance on the down-stay, it will encourage him to stand if he's used to seeing you lean over him. Don't be too consistent in your body positions, other than your cue, when you reward/train.

Be careful of the timing of your reward also. If you are luring him, don't let him have any of the reward until his whole body is settled on the ground in a complete down. I would make him patiently wait a few seconds in the down position with your lure in front of him before giving the treat. Or if he's a mouthy dog who has his nose attached to your hand with the treat in it, wait until he backs off your hand and looks at it for a few seconds before you give him the treat.
Try to fade the lure quickly and teach him a short 1-3 sec. down-stay without the treat in front of him. The only way he can get that treat is with his butt on the ground. If he breaks and gets up or crawls-he gets no treat & back to original postition to try again. Make sure to take "baby steps". Try 1 sec. stay ,then 2 sec. after he stays for 1 sec. well. Don't forget to use a release word to let him know he is done with his stay before giving a treat.
Keep the leash on the ground or you can also stand on it to give a leash correction under your foot if he tries to stand during the stay.
Does this help or need more?

I`ve already tried luring him into it. His butt will pop up every single time and I think putting him in a sit-stay first would just cause confusion. At this point I`m not sure whether he knows it or not. I offered a piece of his favorite food and he wouldn`t do it but he may just be stubborn. He gets that way on certain things. Took me months to teach him leave it. After he ignored me and tried to sniff jumping cactus he has listened everytime. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He`s not stupid just stubborn.
And I always give huge rewards the first couple of times with him. He doesn`t see any reason to learn otherwise.

Allison He already knows what a stay is. He will do both sitting and standing stays. It`s just this particular command I`m having trouble with.

 Quote:

I think putting him in a sit-stay first would just cause confusion.

You don't have to CUE him to sit-stay before asking to down. Just make sure his physical position is in a sit when you get him to down. Again, this will help because his bottom is already on the ground.

 Quote:

I offered a piece of his favorite food and he wouldn`t do it but he may just be stubborn. He gets that way on certain things. Took me months to teach him leave it. After he ignored me and tried to sniff jumping cactus he has listened everytime. He`s not stupid just stubborn.

Saying a dog is stubborn seems to be an excuse for bad training. Boxers, or any dog, aren't stubborn, they are just not understanding, undermotivated, or outsmarting us. If you are using consistent, logical ways of training it shouldn't be immpossible to train. Your dog sounds like one who has figured out some ways to get around behaving and they are working. "Leave-it" is a easy behavior that can be easily taught in 10 minutes using the right technique that the dog understands. Reliablity of the behavior depends on the trainers consistency, practice and way of reinforcment.

 Quote:

And I always give huge rewards the first couple of times with him. He doesn`t see any reason to learn otherwise

Using jackpots is tricky...dogs will learn soon that it is more fun to get jackpots then 1 treat. Jackpoting will only increase behavior in certain situations and only should be used on the most difficult tasks, such as the problem with the down. It's like saying, "You Did It! Finally! Super Good Dog." But when you reward huge treats OFTEN, like you said you have been doing, they become dependent on these big rewards and it kills their motivation.
One of the best things to do when using treats is to use a variable schedule of reinforcement, meaning after the behavior is trained you begin to reward using a treat less often- not every behavior gets a treat. Only the faster, straighter, or more specific requirement that has been met for the behavior gets rewarded.
Since your dog knows the sit, sit-stay, and stand-stay, I would start to raise you critera for these behaviors and reward on a variable schedule. This will dramaticlly increase his motivation and get much better behavior out of him.(I can explain this more in detail if you've never done this before.)
If I were you, I'd really start making him earn his treats on the behaviors he already knows. His new-found motivation will help in him learning new behaviors and should help fix those problems with the down. You'll probably just have to go back to step one basics of teaching the down in a new, fresh, fun positive way for the dog. What you've been doing obviously isn't working- time for a change.

Perhaps I didn`t explain myself well enough. When I tell Elvis to sit he knows he is supposed to hold that position until he is released or told to do something else such as heel. If I don`t tell him to sit the butt pops up. And just curious but does your 10 minute leave-it session gurantee that the dog will not decide that something is too appealing to pass by. I don`t think so. This dog laughs at a choke chain. Iam not allowed to use a prong. That means that I have to rely almost completly on getting one step ahead of him. He doesn`t give a care about treats when he decides that something is below his position in the pack to do. Treat training may work with some dogs but it will not work on Elvis most of the time. It motivates him very little. I use it primarily to demonstrate to him that yes that`s what I was looking for. You seem to be pretty quick to declare me incompetent or lazy because of one problem I`m having. I understand and use the concepts of variable reinforcement. I don`t quite get how you changed using jackpots the first couple times to using them often. My expectations always get higher after my dogs have learned a command. I used the example of leave-it to show that if the consequences are severe enough he will listen. I didn`t include it so you could try to say I`m stupid. I consider something fully learned when he will do it every single time under almost any kind of distraction. This post may make it seem like training is no fun for Elvis but it is. His tail is going near constantly. He has countinued to learn new behaviors doing what I always do. Your advice sounds like cookie cutter stuff from the latest clicker and gentle leader mag. Based on your posts I`m starting to wonder if you even own a dog! You are trying to post a method that is a half-a** approach to dog training. It is not needed here. If you just think that a positive approach will work well with my dog then I apologize. A piece of advice that I recommend you think over is that your posts don`t even take into consideration that I already understand the basics. You are on the fast track to really annoying and insulting someone as you have me. You have also been on the board at the most 20 days. I suggest you sit back and read about the kind of dog that`s normally talked about here. Elvis might be a pet but he is a very dominant dog. I go to this board because of that. I normally try to keep from confronting people like this but some of the things you said tick me off and probaly would do that to a lot of of other people too.

Just a side note but I tried to edit it so it wasn`t one big block but apparently I can`t do that anymore.

Just a couple ideas if you haven't tried them. The first is the "dog under the leg" trick. Sit on the ground with one or both legs out in front of you (like a bridge). Lure him under your legs with a treat or toy, and the instant his belly hits the ground click/treat and release. Most seem to catch on to that really fast.

If that fails, I've had success using the "stand on the leash and outstubborn him" idea. LOL Put a leash on him, run it under you foot and back up to your hand. Pull on it until you force his head near to the ground. Then just stand and wait. Eventually (usually not very long) they decide this is a sucky position to stand in, so they lay down. Praise and reward. I used this with a very stubborn GSD I had in class. She wasn't interested in food or toys, and was hard to force into a position by hand. After 2x of the above, she would lay down on command right away. It was non-stressful for all involved and quite effective.

If you've already tried the above let me know and I'll try to come up with something else. Good luck!

I have tried the standing on the leash method. Problem is I gave up after about 20 min. and so now he just waits and expects me to give up.Tried about 30min. once. He braces his legs and doesn`t seem to mind me pulling on his head.<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />He`s such a weird dog very patient too. I`m going to see how long it takes tomorrow. Im on spring break so I`ve got hours if it takes that long. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It looks like you have a dog with strong opposition reflex. I have always found that standing on the leash causes dogs to fight back. I would discontinue the pushing and pulling thing. 20 minutes should of had you thinking that this is dumb and I need to try something new, not how much longer can I hold out before the dog wins again. A passive way of gaining dominence is to withhold food. ie yes my beautiful dog you don't have to down, but I don't have to feed you. Lets see who lasts the longest this time. Give him many opportunities to get his food thru the day.