I just started the pack structure program for my two dogs. I posted earlier titled "My first Posting" in this section for a backround on my situation.I am two days in and my male refuses to eat. I fasted them on Sunday and both Monday and Tuesday my male refused to eat. I left the food in the crate for 20 minutes. My female, who is def food drivin, ate all of it, both days. This is now the third day of not eating for my male! What do I do? Today they are more calm submissive in their crates than they were yesterday. They both go nuts when its time to take one out to the bathroom or out for a walk. I do one at a time, which is very time consuming for me, but I have had some of the best walks these past two days because they have never walked alone before. I used to always walk them together. This so far has been more of a test for my wife and I. Being "aloof" after we have had them for two plus years is not easy. But we know in our hearts that this is the best thing for them. Any help or comments would be much appreciated! And I would just like to say how much of a savior Leerburgs site, their DVDs, ebooks and this discussion board have been so far. I am very lucky to have finally discovered the proper methods for my dogs.

Sincerely,

Marc Mathews
New Haven, CT

Just keep on keeping on!
Dogs can go for 43 days without food according to my vet.
He will get hungry soon enough.

 Quote: marc mathews

... I just started the pack structure program for my two dogs. I posted earlier titled "My first Posting" in this section for a backround on my situation.I am two days in and my male refuses to eat. I fasted them on Sunday and both Monday and Tuesday my male refused to eat. ...

Marc, I just looked at your other post and have to ask: Are you talking about a new raw diet that the male refuses to eat? A diet he had not had before?

If so, what is it? (What foods are you giving?)

I don't know from your other post what the issues were that you saw as perfect for the pack structure program, so can't really address that. But this food thing sounds like it might be completely unrelated.

If so, you might want to modify the subject here to be more like "pack structure/new raw diet" to get better response.

No, not the raw diet. I haven't switched them yet. I wanted to do one at a time as to not overwhelm myself, my wife and the dogs. I figured this is a huge change to begin with. So, it is his usual diet that he isn't eating...and I even put steak from last night in today! And still, no eating. This is a huge change for them, so I'm guessing he is just stressing from being in the crate??? I plan on switching to the raw in another month or so.

You could do what Ed suggests, letting your other dog eat his food right in front of him!

Also, try putting his food in and walk away. He might be dwelling on the attention if you are watching him too closely. After the time is up, take it out again.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Ok I read your other post with some hopes for clues. So here are some questions...

Are you having issues with the male being dog aggressive towards other dogs while on walks? What have you tried doing about this so far? Exactly what happens? Is he reactive from a distance as soon as he sees the dog, or is he calm and silent and only lashes out when he is close to the other dog?

Has he been crated before (you mentioned this is new to hi)? What sort of foundation work are/have you done with the crate? What was his food intake like before? Was he a big eater and now just stopped eating all together or was he always a so so eater. One of my dogs has gone through phases where she didn't eat for a week, she used to be very picky. We ended up switching foods and she now eats like a pig. My other dog has always been a big eater and the only time he has refused food was when he was very sick.

Thank you so much for the response and great questions. YES, he is dog aggressive! Yes, while on walks, the second he sees another dog, his hair stands up and he barks and will try to pull toward them. In the past I have tried corrections, which were probably more nagging to him than anything else...I tried to physically lay him on his side and hold him down...which I can do but my wife could not. That did nothing. I am now trying the technique I saw Ed do on his Dominant and Aggressive Dog DVD with saying "no" and if he doesn't respond make a correction with the prong collar and if he still doesn't listen I increase the level of correction...so far...in the past two days on the groundwork program it seems to have slightly improved. Possibly the new program and new techniques have something to do with it. For example there are two dogs down the street that go crazy when we walk by. My male could get close to that house and even if they aren't outside he starts to get out of control. When he realizes they are not out, he stops, but if they are, even a strong correction doesn't do much! He has been crated in the past, but the last 6 months or so the only time he was crated was when we left the house (we have two siamese cats and two pit bulls). At night we would let him wonder the house or sleep on the couch but he would attempt to jump on the bed several time, waking us up! He was never really a big eater. Some days he would not eat in the morning, but he would eat later at night. I used to feed two times per day, Eukinuba, sometimes with something mixed in like egg or steak or chicken or cottege cheese. I'm doing only one time per day as of starting this program. The whining drives me nuts, but I know all of this is what they need to be healthy, happy dogs. Hope this all helps. Thanks everyone!!

Marc Mathews
New Haven, CT

Barking and hair standing up necessarily an indication of aggression. My dog's hackles go up ANYTIME he is stimulated in any way. If he hears a noise, if he sees a squirrel, if he smells a new smell, especially if other dogs bark at him (and he is not at ALL dog aggressive. It took me a while to get used to it. If he sees another dog and he wants to play, he pulls, barks, and all of his hair from his head to his tail stands up.

Its been my priority to let him investigate all these things that stimulate him this way. If he gets too frenzied, I make him down/stay until he settles down and then I reward by letting him meet the dog.

I missed the age of of dog? I know someone with a 3 year old that has looked like a little skeleton-dog up until he turned 2 1/2 and his body caught up to his eating habits. The dog never cared to eat more than he needed.

 Quote: marc mathews

In the past I have tried corrections, which were probably more nagging to him than anything else...I tried to physically lay him on his side and hold him down...which I can do but my wife could not. That did nothing.

I am now trying the technique I saw Ed do on his Dominant and Aggressive Dog DVD with saying "no" and if he doesn't respond make a correction with the prong collar and if he still doesn't listen I increase the level of correction...so far...in the past two days on the groundwork program it seems to have slightly improved. Possibly the new program and new techniques have something to do with it.

Marc, you need to be very careful with timing corrections for dog aggression. If the dog relates the correction to the other dog (and doesn't connect the correction to you), then you will end up making your dog even more fearful and aggressive toward other dogs.

If he is hackling, barking and lunging, you have waited too long to correct him. If you are going to correct in this situation, you need to say 'No!' and correct the minute he looks at the other dog, before he has reacted strongly. If you time the correction correctly, you should not need to give such a strong correction...

A better choice would be to work on obedience just outside his reactivity area. This is where marker training comes into play. The basic premise is that you do some fun, upbeat obedience just outside of the area where your dog reacts to other dogs. If the other dogs are behind a fence, this should make it pretty easy to pinpoint where he starts to react.

If he plays with a tug, this is another way to engage him in a positive manner just outside his reactive zone. As he becomes more comfortable, you can move closer to the other dogs. This is something that you would work on daily for awhile, to accomplish desensitizing him to other dogs.

Hopefully others will chime in here with suggestions...

Okay, I understand the timing on the correction needs to be more on point. But I must say I'm still a little confused about the groundwork and if I should still have him crated 24/7? Like I said earlier the whining continues. He is panting and driving himself nuts. Should I continue w/ this? Should I add an some obed. training in too? I know in the dvd it said to wait until the pack structure program is finished before starting any kind of obed training. I just don't want this to hurt him more than help him. And especially because my female seems to be more calm submissive in the crate, she is going to move on to stage two (being out of the crate but on a leash tied to me or the chair I'm in) much sooner than him. When he sees her get out to go for a walk, he goes bonkers, nevermind if he ends up seeing her out on a leash all day!