I have learned from this board to "desensitize" Harvey to strangers rather than letting just everyone come up to him and be lovey-dovey and taking his attention from me. Never thought of that before when considering a PPD (keep in mind MY

oops.... hit some button...

MY idea of a PPD as far as Harvey is concerned.

My ongoing issue now is, Harvey is totally, completely, crazed by activity of the kids. Now, I have four kids, ages 10, 8, 7 & 5, so they're loud, active, and energetic. They love Harvey and play with him under supervision, as part of my plan for him is to "protect" them as well as me (barking alert).

How can I keep him from just going nuts when they're outside playing? If he's outside, he jumps at the end of the leash, pays no attention to me, and barks. If I crate him when they play outside, he whines, scratches at the crate, and gnaws at the wires. Nothing gets his attention at this point -- I haven't found that magic "thing" that is more fun than the kids.

How can I teach him to ignore their after-school and pretty day outside play?

Oh yeah, the most important point. If I just let him loose in the fence yard to play with them, he just plainly plays too rough. He's not with them without me outside, but he ignores me, food, and toys. If I keep him tethered, he still ignored, though I do maintain some control. I can't always take him outside without kids, as the kids need to expend as much energy as he does ;-) and time is short.

BTW, we have started agility of sorts, with homemade obstacles, and Harvey loves them. But again, he ignores them with the kids are outside, and he won't listen to the kids to let them participate.

 Quote: paula colvett

MY idea of a PPD as far as Harvey is concerned.

What is this definition?

Do you mean desensitizing him (the title) to strangers? Is he reactive? Details.

How old is the dog?

"How can I teach him to ignore their after-school and pretty day outside play? " IMO, you can't. I'd be thinking of this as a management thing.

He wouldn't be off-leash when wild running, etc., with kids of that age, was happening (and would probably be indoors, IMO, but others will have suggestions, too), but I'd have/arrange/allow supervised much calmer "other" play with the kids and the dog.

You mentioned earlier reacting to the five-year-old screaming. What is his reaction like?

In addition, of course, I'd have plenty of exercise for the dog, like fetch and lots of moving-right-along walks.

Back to the topic title: Tell us about his reactivity (besides to kids running/screaming, etc.).



"Oh yeah, the most important point. If I just let him loose in the fence yard to play with them, he just plainly plays too rough."

I wouldn't do that.

Harvey's role as a PPD for us is to stay with us, such as at the park, or in the van when we're traveling and just be there to be an ominous presence. I want him to bark on command (he does) and quiet on command (he does... sometimes... we're still working on that). I want him to stand square between us and strangers when approached, which he is doing nicely. I don't want a trained PPD as "defined" by Leerburg, just a big ominous dog to make someone think twice before approaching and to give me an alert time to respond in whatever manner I deem appropriate (call the kids in, call the cops, get the gun, etc.).

At first he reacted to strangers, wanting to be petted, *especially children*. I've worked with him on sit/stay, and he now ignores everyone when on leash -- except my own children.

Management of the after-school play...do you mean just keep him inside and crated (has to be crated or he'll chew the door frame wanting out). Should I use stronger control over him at this time... he's 5 months old, seems a bit young for an e-collar. Right now I do just crate him and listen to his fussing b/c I don't know what else to do.

At normal quiet times around the house, he's great. When they're up dressing for school he's allowed to lie on the beanbag in the living room, same when they're getting ready for bed, and after school. If they're inside and ignoring him, playing quietly, we have no problems. In the a.m. and before bed they often lie with him on the beanbag to watch TV, and he loves the quiet attention then.

The reaction to the screamer is to jump on him and grab his arms (biting??, chewing??, tug??), pull on the seat of his pants... seems to be that he believes it to be an invitation to play. And chasing, chasing, chasing, if Jacob runs. If Jacob doesn't run, Harvey jumps on him. This happens quickly, as Jacob is the 5yo... they'll be lying quietly on the beanbag watching TV, then suddenly Jacob jumps up, screams and runs. So I know Jacob's interactions with Harvey are very, very limited now. They are not allowed free time together at all.

Harvey gets lots of exercise, though probably not enough "forced" exercise. He loves to fetch, so I toss a ball for him quite a bit, and we play tug (problem there?) and we're not working on the agility course each evening. We also go on daily walks, about an hour, cross-country.

Besides the running & screaming, the kids don't seem to cause a reaction from him at all. During the weekends when they are here, if they're all quiet and doing quiet activities, he's fine and either lies near them or ignores them. But if one gets up to run, or gets loud, it just sends him into a frenzy.

As for playing with them in the yard, that no longer happens. I tried it, thinking being allowed to run with them might help, but he focuses on one or the other of them (whichever is loudest and runs fastest) and torments them.

At 5 mos of age, should I just separate him from the kids at all times, until Harvey is older? He has a good recall (is that what it means, when I call him to me and he returns?), so there's no problem there. Even when he's focused on one of the kids, if I recall, he'll come. Reluctantly, though.

 Quote: paula colvett

How can I keep him from just going nuts when they're outside playing? If he's outside, he jumps at the end of the leash, pays no attention to me, and barks. If I crate him when they play outside, he whines, scratches at the crate, and gnaws at the wires. Nothing gets his attention at this point -- I haven't found that magic "thing" that is more fun than the kids.

Paula,

A little bit busy are you? The ages of your children and Harvey's behavior remind me of when Thor was a pup I often felt I was living in an asylum.

How old is Harvey? And how much training does he have? When you crate him are you also in the house? Do you let him out when he is whining, scratching and gnawing? Also is he worked up enough at this point to hurt himself?

 Quote: Paula Colvett

At 5 mos of age, should I just separate him from the kids at all times, until Harvey is older? He has a good recall (is that what it means, when I call him to me and he returns?), so there's no problem there. Even when he's focused on one of the kids, if I recall, he'll come. Reluctantly, though.

I think you answered all my questions but I missed your post somehow...I have the same hitting button problem or not hitting in this case

I for one am very impressed by a recall even reluctant at 5 months. Just make sure he is leashed so he can't decide not to return if he isn't already.

I definitely wouldn't seperate them all the time but I would supervise all interactions. And I would reward his good behavior by letting him continue to interact and remove him immediately once he starts to get out of hand.

I can explain a game which used up some of my dog's energies, engaged the kids, worked the recall and also built on the dog's name recognition of my children.

Begin when he and the kids are calm and set up in a circle just a few feet away from each other. Arm all the kids with little tid bits. You can begin by calling Harvey to you and saying Harvey go to child #1; child #1 then calls Harvey, treats him for coming(I had my kids drop the treat rather than hand feed cause I think finger nipping was a possibility.) and then sends him to one of his siblings who then calls, treats for coming and sends him on again. And so on and so on randomly selecting who he will go to next (uses up more brain power than if Harvey figures out a pattern). As Harvey understands the game have the kids move further and further apart.

I admit it does not solve the out of control behavior but it does allow for Harvey to interact with the kids physically without playing rough.

I am on my 3rd puppy since my son was born, and about 6 foster puppies. For me it is all about management. It is really hard for a 4 year old to have a working relationship with a dog.

First things first, a tired pup is a good pup. I have found with my new working line GSD female, she gets more tired from mentally stimulating games, than just physical exercise. She gets equal amounts of physical and mental exercise everyday. The days that we only walk, tug or retrieve, she is much harder to handle.

So, first I always teach my new pups to be quiet and still before I have them out around my son. To do this I always keep my pup on a leash and I step on it so that she only has enough leash to sit or down. Then I wait...Usually, the pup will start to become frustrated, then thrash and bark, my current one gets downright angry and throws a fit. When the pup calms down, I mark and reward. If they stay calm for 30 seconds (at first) I release and reward, but always calmly. Then I just keep practicing this, and always marking the calm behavior and stretching out the period of time that the dog has to lay there and be calm.

Once I have a 5-10 minute calm period, I then start bringing the pup out when I have my son out, but always on a leash. So the pup can sit nicely ( I put my finger in her collar) and be petted by my son or she can laydown quietly, those are her options. If she gets too excited or out of hand, I step on the leash, and now that she knows what to do she will just calm down and laydown.

We walk her together and he feeds her (puts the food in the bowl and puts the bowl in her crate) but other than that she is MY dog.

I have 2 older females who were raised the same way, they are now very calm around him, and if he starts to run around, they find a place to laydown and they stay there. My son has even tripped and accidently fallen on one of them, she never even turned her head towards him until he got up. My Leonberger is VERY protective of him. I never had to let them do the things that I do with her to get that. He is part of her pack, she respects him and she protects him like a pack member (With that said, she always looks to me to know if the occasion calls for her to step up)

Paula,

My kids are much older, HOWEVER, when they come home (one in college, the other lives 6 hrs away, but still comes home regularly), the dog is bonkers. When she was about 6 months old, like your dog, I would just make sure she was on the long line so I could control the jumping up, the wiggly mouthy stuff etc. I know that your crew is moving around a lot more and inspiring a high level of prey drive. But, keep vigilantly calling him to you while on the lead so you can reel him in, especially out in the yard. Treat him (high value ones) when he sits by you with all the shenanigans. If you actually have time to sit with Harvey and watch the play--I know a tall order...

I used to make Maggie sit with me on the porch and watch passing people running, walking etc. on the street and sidewalk when the kids weren't home, just so she got used to seeing movement she didn't have to follow.

Just yesterday, I had to lecture my daughter to not have a love fest when she first walks into the house after being away, so that the dog learns to be calm when she comes in the front door. Otherwise there is jumping you would not believe! Something she never even thinks of when I come home now...

ETA just saw Niomi's post and it reminded me that I also use the step on the leash technique and make her lay on her place when she gets frisky with the excitement of kids.

Great ideas, thanks to all of you. Again, Harvey is just about 5 months old and is a rescue, found by me in the middle of the highway, and believed to be mostly labrador, perhaps partly "pit." You can read another of my posts to see my joke for his "designer breed" name.

As for Harvey's current training... he has absolutely amazed me at what he learned so quickly. He will recall, sit, stay (very short amount of time, like for me to walk around him), lie down, hand me each paw, bark on command ("hold 'em"). The stop barking command has been a hand on the collar and "shhh, that's enough". Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (doesn't work with the kids, obviously).

He does not react at all to adults (unless I give the hold 'em command), and he doesn't really care about other children, maybe a look and wag of the tail, but that's it. It seems to be just family. **as for the recall, he's VERY attached to me. Follows me everywhere in the house and outside, sleeps beside me, and sleeps with me after I let him out at 4 a.m. (his wakeup time, not time) and I get on the big beanbag with him for an hour or so. Attached to me at the hip, EXCEPT when one of my kids starts screaming and running.

One thing I started early on b/c I realized he's going to be big and bold, when I put his food in the crate, he has to sit quietly beside me and wait -- I have to literally crawl into the huge crate to reach the bowl attachment. When I back out and look at him and say ok, he bounces in. *Very* patient with that.
He never whines or cries in his crate any more, and often lies in it when he wants quiet time. He's crated at night and if I have to leave during the day, and if he gets too wild with the children.

I have put up a baby gate at the front end of the hallway to keep him from going to their bedrooms and stealing fun stuff, and to give them their own privacy without concern that he'll jump on them. It's their safe place. Harvey is big enough to push down the gate or jump it, but he respects it.

And a note about my other long post, I stated I am not working with him in agility. Don't know why I posted NOT, as I AM working with agility, mostly to interact with him mentally. He loves obstacle course!

Niomi, you're right, the mental stimulation does seem to make him much more tired than just the physical run.

Geez, and all this comes from Harvey the lazy dog! I'm very glad his energy level has upped, but I want to be sure I avoid an future problems. I've never had an inside dog requiring this level of care, and I've never had a big pup with kids, so it's all new to me, even with my past experience with dogs in general.

Oh, one last thing - I don't want to use the crate as punishment, but I'm finding myself just crating him when he gets too wild for the kids. He doesn't seem to mind, he lies down immediately and enjoys a chew toy. After ten or fifteen minutes I'll open the crate and if he's manageable he can stay out, if not, he goes back in. Is that okay?

You guys are great!

Ahh, did anybody notice I'm calling him Harvey again, instead of LJ? I've tried to keep posting as LJ on the board, but the name didn't fly at home. He's Harvey, or "The Harvester" as the kids call him :-)

Edited by Paula Colvett (04/04/2010 07:54 AM)
Edit reason: dog name clarification