So I am trying to get out of the luring way of training and letting the dogs figure things out and shape them into behaviors. I have a few questions:

Lets take for example a somewhat easy maneuver of spin left. How would you go about training this without luring? Would you wait for them to turn their head to the left and mark and treat. After they have this down, then wait until they turn head and shoulder...?

What about more advanced things? Do you lure in these situations or do you let the dog figure things out? I can see marking things they naturally do and then build on it to understand you are marking a certain behavior until they understand that (ie, if you want to teach them to stretch, mark for them stretching on their own and then give a command and keep doing this until they realize that is what you are asking of them.) Does this generally take awhile since they only stretch lets say when standing up from a long down and you can only mark when they do it?

You can see where I am going with this. It is mainly do you lure and shape, or with all behaviors do you solely try and shape?

Thanks!

 Quote: Keith Kaplan

You can see where I am going with this. It is mainly do you lure and shape, or with all behaviors do you solely try and shape?

IMO, it depends entirely on the trainer and the dog. I'd never make it as a trainer doing pure shaping for everything. Lure/reward works just fine for me, for most things.

Others may have other opinions, of course.

leih

Keith, I've been reading a book I learned about on this website called The Thinking Dog - http://leerburg.com/996.htm.

It is a really good book for these kinds of questions. It's actually like a textbook on Marker Training! It compares different types of training with marker training, and then also compares different ways of marker training - luring vs shaping for example. It gives examples of how to do each, and explains when to use each one and the advantages and disadvantages. I really recommend this book to people who are serious about learning all the ins and outs of marker training. It goes really well with the DVD's Ed sells here too.

The Thinking Dog is a great read!

I have taught a dog the bow from streching and it was rather easy with this particular dog. I couldn´t lure this because she downed every time I took the treat downwards. She had been free shaped alot, is a really smart dog and only needed a couple of reps until she started offering the behaviour. She has a free shaped spin left and right, free shaped high five, raise paws from beg, can do a free shaped flip finish (though she usually does it the other way since the flip was taught later just for fun) etc. I trained her but she is my sisters dog so I haven´t really worked her for about 4 years.

My dobe has a free shaped retrieve and some just for fun stuff like standing on a chair and turning head sideways.

I did it mostly because this is the way I thought clicker training worked. I had read "Don´t shoot the dog" and stuff on the internet and under the impression that FS is the best way. But I think Michael Ellis makes a good point on why some behaviours are better lured. I have gotten stuck with FS several times and it is FRUSTRATING! Though it is really fun to just take some treats and a dog familiar with free shaping and just let it flow.

Thanks for the responses. So what I have got with further research and from your responses is that a combination of luring and free shaping are the best route to take. I would like to do more free shaping on more complex behaviors, but I can't imagine how I would do that. I will try doing more free shaping and see how my dogs respond. Maybe they will start throwing out new behaviors that I can shape.

Oh, and Michael Ellis is right about that part also that once the dog figures out a free shaped behaviour, it is a very strong and rewarding one. With my sisters dog I sat next to an agility tire for what seemed hours. Just me, the dog, the tire and pieces of chicken wings (read: go insane valued treats). Once she figured out that she had to jump through it and got rewarded crazy, she would perform anything with extreme eagerness when she knew that she can jump the tire as a reward.

 Quote: jaana aadamsoo

But I think Michael Ellis makes a good point on why some behaviours are better lured. I have gotten stuck with FS several times and it is FRUSTRATING! Though it is really fun to just take some treats and a dog familiar with free shaping and just let it flow.

I think the part about having a dog familiar with free shaping is really critical to how the exercises turn out in the beginning - if the dog has been lured it's whole life, it takes quite a few sessions to get over the frustration of not having you "show" it what to do. This was the case with my dog - he spent a lot of time looking completely exasperated because he wasn't used to trying things out on his own. We've done just enough FS now that he's getting better at guessing, but he was raised on luring, so he still has moments where he shuts down in hopes that I'll just step in and guide him. We're currently working on a retrieve using shaping... it's a bit slow, but definitely a fun learning experience for us both. The bow and paw over the nose I taught with luring though, and Oscar is still best with that technique, at least for now - the bow was super easy because there's a tickley spot on Oscar's chest that if you scratch it, makes him bow into a stretch - all I had to do was scratch the spot, wait for the bow, mark and repeat, eventually incorporating the command.

I think I've posted a link to this blog before, but this woman (Fanny Gott, from Sweden) trains using primarily shaping, with luring and targeting as backup. Her blog follows her training progress with her little pack of herding and hunting breeds, and it's really a joy to both read and watch the youtube clips she posts. I notice she recently even wrote a post specifically about the differences in popularity between FS and luring:
http://www.fannygott.com/some-of-my-thoughts-on-shaping

And here's a sweet little vid of her working on random trick training with her setter, Pi - you can tell this pup has been encouraged to think for herself since day one :
http://www.fannygott.com/happy-birthday

~Natalya

Natalya, you are right! I started to think about it today and actually got intimidated to try FS with my pup who has very little experience with it. I guess I have to sooner or later and sooner might be easier than later, eh...

I started off with shaping with one of the 9 mos rescues I got, as he came with 's' shaped rears. So being young and physically tiring easily I had to come up with something to mentally tire him. It does take some patience, but I just love watching his wheels spin. Not sure if it is just my limited experience but the shaped behaviors seem to be done with more energy than the lured. I don't have enough time to just do shaping and some things must come a lot quicker.