GerardFalzo wrote 10/17/2001 10:51 PM dominant dogs are more intelligent or not #23954 - 10/17/2001 10:51 PM
GerardFalzo Webboard User Reg: 09-01-2001 Posts: 8 Loc: Offline	i raise a question wondering if dominant dogs are more intelligent than non dominant dogs to private trainers and police k9 officers and found no clear answer. i'm not saying there easier to train, but after the dominant issue has been settle between the handler and the k9, is a dominant dog easier, quicker or faster to learn patrol or protection work. does this type of dog become a natural in the training that is ask of him. i've heard some interesting opinions on this subject. patrol k9 "we love the night life"
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Vince P. wrote 10/18/2001 10:08 AM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23955 - 10/18/2001 10:08 AM
Vince P. Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 1050 Loc: NJ Offline	I have heard that the following traits are related to fight drive: Strong prey drive Large bone structure Independence There is no substantial proof but it is a theory.
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Pete Felknor wrote 10/18/2001 11:29 AM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23956 - 10/18/2001 11:29 AM
Pete Felknor Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 495 Loc: Deerfield, WI Offline	Just my .02: I would reason that dominant dogs in general would be more intelligent, based upon natural selection in nature. An alpha wolf lacking in intelligence would probably spell doom for his pack, or at least over the long run if packs were led by the less intelligent animals the trend for the species would be negative. I own a very dominant male GSD. He is by far the most intelligent dog I have ever encountered, even allowing for a certain amount of personal bias... training him has been a challenge, to say the least, but this has everything to do with his "attitude" and nothing with his ability to learn. He learns even complex tasks very quickly. Pete Felknor
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Lisa Swanston wrote 10/18/2001 02:38 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23957 - 10/18/2001 02:38 PM
Lisa Swanston Webboard User Reg: 08-03-2001 Posts: 1588 Loc: Offline	I have to disagree. In the natural world, it would make sense that in a pack of wild canids, the leader would have greater intellingence. However, domestic dogs are in many ways far from being wild canids. I have seen plenty of dominant dogs that lack intelligence! I think that dominance as a "will to power" is more of a drive thing than and intelligence thing. Just my .02 , FWIW.
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Ed Frawley wrote 10/18/2001 03:56 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23958 - 10/18/2001 03:56 PM
Ed Frawley Administrator Reg: 07-11-2001 Posts: 2112 Loc: Offline	I agree with the post above. I see no relationship between dominance and intelligence. I have had more dominant dogs than anyone I know and these two traits are not connected. Just look at some of these dominant Rots - a lot of them are just big slugs. Frawley@leerburg.com http://www.leerburg.com
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Kevin Sheldahl wrote 10/18/2001 04:09 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23959 - 10/18/2001 04:09 PM
Kevin Sheldahl Moderator Reg: 07-11-2001 Posts: 1052 Loc: New Mexico Offline	I would reason that dominant dogs in general would be more intelligent, based upon natural selection in nature. An alpha wolf lacking in intelligence would probably spell doom for his pack, or at least over the long run if packs were led by the less intelligent animals the trend for the species would be negative. ?????????? Pete, To asume that extreme dominance is what produces puppies in nature may not be true. It certainly isn't in domestic dogs. In fact very intelligent, very dominant dogs probably end up dead more than they reproduce. It is fortunate that dominance isn't selected for in domestic dogs as a highly desireable trait.........they'd be impossible to work with. For every highly dominant dog that can fit into a position with in its social structure and become a great working dog there are dozens that never have any better than mediocre success because you cannot fix the rank issue completely. K. Sheldahl http://k9services.com
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Pete Felknor wrote 10/18/2001 04:46 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23960 - 10/18/2001 04:46 PM
Pete Felknor Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 495 Loc: Deerfield, WI Offline	Well, Kevin, it's true that a lot of people have told me that if THEY had my dog, he would have been dead by now! So you may be right on the money there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And if you asked me personally, I'd say that in the future I would take an intelligent dog. Or a (slightly) dominant dog. But not an intelligent, dominant dog. Too much work. I'm not a naturalist and am certainly no expert on wolves. Just guessing on what traits would be the best for ensuring survival in the wild. I will also grant that many times I hear people tell me that their dog is "dominant" and they have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. If a male dog lifts his leg to pee, they think he's dominant. Owning a dominant dog is a pain in the ass and I can see why this is not a trait that would be selected for in the domestic dog. Pete Felknor
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Dei wrote 10/18/2001 05:42 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23961 - 10/18/2001 05:42 PM
Dei Webboard User Reg: 08-04-2001 Posts: 32 Loc: London Offline
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Ellen Nickelsberg wrote 10/18/2001 06:15 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23962 - 10/18/2001 06:15 PM
Ellen Nickelsberg Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 143 Loc: Offline	I agree with those who said there is no correlation between dominance & intelligence. Certainly there can be intelligent dominant dogs but I don't think there is any direct relationship. IMO intelligence is more connected to strong, sound nerves, confidence and high drive than to anything else. IMO it is the dog that can be calm and focused even in a high drive situation that learns the most and learns the fastest. Calmness & focus do not infer a lack of drive. In fact, drive is necessary to spark interest initially -- then the nerve & confidence factor come into play allowing for the calm attitude (vs hectic) and clear focus necessary for the dog to observe & learn. Ellen Nickelsberg
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Pete Felknor wrote 10/18/2001 06:19 PM Re: dominant dogs are more intelligent or not [Re: GerardFalzo ] #23963 - 10/18/2001 06:19 PM
Pete Felknor Webboard User Reg: 07-13-2001 Posts: 495 Loc: Deerfield, WI Offline	Thanks for your 1.45 c (you have obviously worked out the currency conversion!). I have to demur, however, on the notion that prey drive has become completely dissociated from any drive to hunt down food. A few years back, here in Wisconsin, there was a celebrated case of a GSD who broke away from a veterinary hospital where he was due to have kidney surgery. This was during the dead of winter. The dog not only survived, but managed to thrive (i.e. he GAINED weight) during the one-month period he lived in the wild. He made his living by killing rabbits. "Thor" spent most of his time in a large fallow field near where I used to live. I saw many of his rabbit kills--very professionally done. It was obvious that when survival was at stake, the predator within quickly surfaced. "Thor" had never had any previous experience as a hunter. Just as a parenthesis within the general discussion... Pete Felknor
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