I am absolutely confused about pain and dogs, particularly with my dog Rose. She's a (nearly) 6 year old American bulldog with a very high prey drive. When playing or working, she simply feels no pain, and will not stop. I've seen her accidentally crash into a shrub on a retrieve and cut herself (once requiring stitches) and didn't acknowledge any discomfort. I put up a spring pole for her to work on biting and outing, and that can be a pretty rough and tumble activity.
Links to Rose working it, for those who don't know about this exercise gadget:
http://i49.tinypic.com/a9s7yq.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/rivtz8.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/14e3qmc.jpg

Before I perfected it, a connector broke and the garage door spring hit her so hard I thought she would be knocked unconscious! But she simply kept attacking the tire at the end of the rope as if nothing had just missiled into her face!

This is the same dog that I can't step over if she's laying in the floor without her hopping to her feet (unlike any other dog I've had or am around now). And same dog that if I grasp her skin if she growls at a stranger yelps! And by grasp her skin, I mean a light correction that is no more pressure than I apply when I am petting and loving on her.

How does task orientation shut off pain? I played high school football and boxed Golden Gloves and could work through *some* when in the moment, but dogs seem to be able to go on and on! This dog who impaled her leg on a branch going for a ball never noticed, yet is such a softie if I so much as cut a nail at the quick.

FWIW, if I didn't "out" her, she would hang on that spring pole until beyond labored breathing, and has fetched until she urinated while trotting exhausted back with the ball after hours of sprinting. She will not stop play or work on her own, and it's been an education to teach her she must stop when it is time. Please don't misconstrue that I overwork her, simply explaining how I learned ending the game always has to come from me. This website and its resources have been instrumental, and I never would have found Leerburg had I not gotten a puppy that could jump my six foot fence at 8 months! She has been a whole new ongoing education into dogs that must work. I've outlived 2 GSDs, a Rottie, and a doberman in my 20+ adult years, but this one takes the seriousness of even a thrown ball to a new level. With a dog like this, how can they be so sensitive when I give a bath, yet ignore nearby fireworks or an injury when there's a game of tug?

I really feel like I have left myself open to questions/criticisms that I didn't take the time to cover, but my point was to explain the two dogs I deal with: Rose when she's around the house, and Rose when there is a task at hand. My question is what goes on in the dog brain that makes those such different creatures!

Chip, how about this idea: go easy on the gadgets and would you let your kid do it/play with it? If not - why would you let your dog? Because they know better? It's just a dog?

A borzoi would run the prey into the forest from the meadow, crashing against a tree and braining itself.

Edited by Ana Kozlowsky (06/06/2010 09:25 PM)
Edit reason: grammar

Pain is a funny thing. We have all had the experience of cutting ourselves sharply, seeing a bunch of blood, and not feeling anything until we processed it , then it hurt like hell.
I think animals can tune it out better than domesticated humans, can just "not think about it". I think it's some sort of survival thing.
I bet some of the soldiers on this forum could really comment on that.

 Quote: ana kozlowsky

Chip, how about this idea: go easy on the gadgets and would you let your kid do it/play with it? If not - why would you let your dog? Because they know better? It's just a dog?

Yes, in fact I let my only child play something he has a passion for (tackle football) that is nothing more than a "gadget" and potentially dangerous. The upsides have to outweigh the downsides in any activity, but some cuts and scrapes don't make a mountain climb not worthwhile. I am simply asking a question about dogs and their mentality here.

Pain response is interesting. I remember reading a study in grad school about where some Transcental Meditation experts could hold their hand in a bucket of ice water almost indefinitely. All of the other subjects could only keep them in for seems like 15-20 minutes. The conclusion was that the TM folks could shut off the "pain perception" and emotional response.

When in "drive" the dog is FOCUSSED on the prey object. They have the juices (adrenaline) flowing. They are not thinking about comfort. There is no "grooming" and licking of wounds. They are "in the zone." In his Basic OB DVD, Ed talks about dogs needing higher levels of correction when in "drive" as compared to during other situations, because the dog just has increased tolerance.

Agree about asking our veterans. Those guys fight through some unbelievable injuries.

A gadget cannot react to whatever stupid move a kid makes, unlike a coach who would risk his life to save a young athlete's life.

You probably know how important this role of a coach is with his charges. Would your coach just let you go at whatever challenge you see out there without discrimination?

 Quote: betty landercasp

I think it's some sort of survival thing.

Yup. Adrenaline blocks some pain receptors, which natural selection would "see" as a way to continue during an emergency, giving the individual time to try a survival fight or flight attempt by postponing excruciating pain. Otherwise, the pain would be so debilitating that the dog (or human) could no longer fend for himself with an increased chance of survival. The hormone helps to block/postpone pain. This is related to the common observations about dogs in drive completely ignoring pain ... during that time having amazing tolerance.

This would be something that the human has to be aware of in order to prevent physical injury incurred during periods of high drive, IMO.

Connie nailed it. That said, some breeds have been developed to have an especially heightened adrenaline response/threshold for pain - mainly working breeds who would naturally encounter a lot of physical obstacles in doing their historical jobs. Bully breeds (which Rose is), and terriers are renowned for having a near lack of pain response altogether when "in the zone"... can't fault the dog for it's breeding, but you're right to be aware and look out for her best interest.

Ana, when built correctly (and assuming a dog is declared fit enough to use one) spring poles are a great, entertaining way to keep a dog busy and physically conditioned, and shouldn't be a danger at all, given the dog has supervision while using one. It does sound important, from what Chip has said, that he end the game before it exhausts her completely, or causes other injury... but as a supervised activity, she sure looks like she enjoys it!

~Natalya

I agree with Natalya! That was a great reply

Ana, so are you saying that you wouldn't throw a stick in the woods for your dog if there was any risk it would poke itself with another stick?

I have seen/heard of springpoles and I think that, also when used correctly, they are awesome. ihave never had a dog with enough drive to enjoy one until now, so I may put one up

It sounds to me like the OP is always supervising his dog when they play with the springpole and with any else for that matter or he would not be able to describe how the injuries occured. An athlete can still get hurt even with coach on the sidelines, just as a dog can get hurt even with the owner right there. And yes, we all try to prevent as much harm as possible from coming to our children and dogs, but sometimes sh*t happens and then you deal with it.

Also, I do not humanize my dogs, so there are some things my kid plays with that my dogs are not allowed and visa versa.

I also feel that the dog's temperment (hard or soft) will also be a consideration in tolerence to pain when in drive. While all dogs will have a higher pain tolerence when in drie, their temperment will make a difference. My female is a hard very high prey drive dog while my male has high prey drive but is a softer dog. There is a very BIG difference in their pain tolerence level in or out of drive.