...what they were originally bred for, over any socialization/training? I have a close friend who owns a another pet shop in Shelby, NC. The economy has been horrible there since the early 80's (Shelby was built on textile plants) and he dealt with many break-in's. He has had filas as his shop's guard dog as long as I've known him (20 plus years).

I've met at least two of his pups as young as 4-9 months, and they were very aloof and standoffish. I mean to the point they make my cop buddies malinios seem sociable. We talked on the phone at length last night and basically had to agree to disagree about breeds, once we had made our points (he made some crappy points about pitbulls not barking, and doberman's being snappy, that took away from his more valid points, or I'd not have pushed the issue). I've lived with mostly "protection" breeds in my adult life, and while the drive and innate need to protect varied, I subscribe to "once you factor in the drive and working needs, a dog is a dog." But the distrust of strangers in the filas I have met make me rethink this.

I get that a lab is likely to be predisposed to retrieve a ball, a bulldog is certainly going to love to tug, a greyhound needs to sprint, etc. But once you find your dog's outlet and work it, socialize it, and train, any dog can be a wonderful friendly companion for you and folks the dog has never met. And this has been my strongest belief against BSL, or even stereotyping dogs because of what breed they happen to be. As they say on talk radio, I'll hang up and listen!

I have a terrier that is more retriever.

I don't know anything about his lineage, but I'd bet that there is little earthwork in there.

Kinda a tough question.

Like you've noticed, any dog can take joy in any activity regardless of what they are "suppose" to do. But they are still going to have tendencies to what they were bred for.

Unless they are really watered down like my dog. A terrier with no desire to dig.

Nature vs Nurture is a hard question to answer and full of capacity to royally piss people off. My thought is that the end results are a combination of breeder-temperament-owner balancing with each other. I know people who believe they can train any behavior out of or into a dog. I guess in my heart of hearts you can't remove some traits and behaviors without breaking something in the dog. I think that owners need to be honest with themselves prior to getting a dog that they are actually up to the commitment that the breed requires.

My lab is a retriever. If I didn't throw anything she will find something. If she's in drive she will find something or create something to carry. I could correct her for this behavior but I believe I would be crushing something I should be shaping.

That said. I do believe some dog breeds are more on average dog aggressive and even stranger aggressive. Not every breed is on average perfect for the average pet home with 2.3 children and a cat. There are also a great many schisms within breeds which can have radical divisions of temperament and drives. Who is breeding the truer version of their hound is a subject of great debate within circles.

Training can manage some behavior traits. I have met dogs who have gone amazingly stranger aggressive or dog aggressive at 2-3 years old despite great socializing exposure and training. The owner manages the dog through training but it doesn't always alter who the dog is.

I think what has been said is very valid. Everyone is gonna have an opinion too. I know folks that do not like to say...well, it is a lab, of course it is hyper or mastiffs are lazy....

I have to say, as my own opinion, that I have never met a breed that was guardier than a bullmastiff. Not barking, not attacking but naturally a dog that as a ten week old pup would put itself out between it's family and anything it thought was hinky. Then evaluate, then do something. Drastic version, knock em down and sit on em. My bullmastiffs also did NOT retrieve. I may have been able to teach it. But it was not something I wanted....I have Border Collies for that.

I also think, my opinion again, that there are a lot of breeds used as 'guard dogs' that are just possessive, loud and intimidating. ...Ever watch the show that has a couple 'ex' thieves that break into your home and then tell you how they did it and how to make your home safe? How many times they walked right by the 'guard dog' pits, labs etc. The best most did was bark and run and hide. That is where training works.

Anyway, off to work.

It Takes A Thief. Outstanding show.

I also think that breeds have inherent tendencies or we would be able to use labs for protection work or rottweilers for bird hunting. Dogs will, of course, have individual personalities and expressions of their inherent tendencies. So yes, I do think that some dogs are naturally aloof with strangers as part of their overall breed temperament. The level of aloofness, I feel, will be the individual expression and how the dog was raised. Some dogs just aren't supposed to be nice to everyone they meet.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

I think that owners need to be honest with themselves prior to getting a dog that they are actually up to the commitment that the breed requires.

Training can manage some behavior traits. I have met dogs who have gone amazingly stranger aggressive or dog aggressive at 2-3 years old despite great socializing exposure and training. The owner manages the dog through training but it doesn't always alter who the dog is.

Melissa has brought up some great points.

I think genetics absolutely do matter. Different breeds were created for different purposes, and while some breeding has watered down traits, there are some things that may never be eliminated from a dog based on his or her genes.

When it comes to pure bred dogs I think its more the rule than the exception that you will come up against something, or find something to work with, based on his or her original purpose.

You can see it in the way dogs play with each other. If you have ever seen two boxers at play it is very apparent that genetics account for a lot. Both dogs will be jumping clear over each other, playing up on hind legs and batting their paws.

I know when Tasha plays with another GSD they always have the same moves!

Another example, I have had two weimaraners. Both dogs pointed all the time. This was never taught. The dogs had never been hunting in their life!

Unfortunately, I think too many people ignore, or even deny genetics these days. I have seen many people who are distraught over their dogs behavior because they have tried hard to do everything right and still can't completely control their dogs instincts.

Another point about genetics. Think of how many rescue dogs out there that people assume have been abused because the dog has quirks the owner just can't iron out. I'm sure some have actually had it pretty rough.

However, about 95% of people I know who have adopted a dog over 6 months old assume abuse history. I just don't believe that there is that much cruelty out there. I do believe there is that much puppy mill and back yard breeding.

Recognizing your dogs genetic traits, respecting them and managing is key.

 Quote:

Recognizing your dogs genetic traits, respecting them and managing is key.

I tend to agree with this. Having had close exposure to many different Dobermans, I can say that in spite of having wildly different personalities and temperaments, there were some very consistent breed characteristics. This has been true from prey drive and suspiciousness, right down to little quirks like the "Dober-poke" and flank-sucking.

Even so, I think that we can influence these behaviours. "Suspiciousness" might look like aggression in one dog, and a simple, benign desire not to be pet in another. Of course there are always exceptions to every rule, but in my experience the consistencies have been there far more often than not.

I think we can influence a dog's development, possibly creating a friendly (or at least tolerant) citizen, but only if we understand the innate nature of that dog and use it's natural tendencies and abilities to do so instead of trying to deny or ignore them. Even so we have to recognize realistic limits.

I had a Greyhound that I had done a LOT of obedience training with. He was very difficult to train, but I did it with positive reinforcement and prey games, and felt pretty darned successful. He learned all the basic obedience commands and a few neat tricks and was quick and reliable even under distraction. In spite of that, I knew he would never have a reliable recall and could never be off lead simply because of what he was.

I'm going to go with....it's the individual dog.
While one 'can' lump dogs into separate slots by breed, they all, each dog, have different path ways to tap into for teaching purposes.
The breed of the dog only gives a point in the alphabet to start with.

many Indian breed standards specify "aloof with strangers" Like Kombai and Rajapalayam and even "not very demonstrative with affection towards owner". So I would think that it is genetic, but it can be managed to an extent with dogs (especially old world breeds)

Thanks for everyone's input. Ramachadran, I have a 4 year old dog who has never once licked my face, even though she'll lay her head on me for petting and affection when people aren't around. But if I come inside with a cut or scrape on my leg from hiking, I have to either correct her repeatedly or put on long pants to stop her licking it! I can pet her face and squeeze until she grunts with pleasure and she will not lick me if I get my face close to hers.

 Quote: kristel smart

Another example, I have had two weimaraners. Both dogs pointed all the time. This was never taught. The dogs had never been hunting in their life!

Too funny you'd mention that. My "loves everyone" dog, Shortstack, is an AKC registered English bulldog. And if I toss her a ball and she doesn't see where it went, she freezes and points as often as not while looking about! I've seen Rose and past dogs (all non-pointers or mixes) do it a time or two, as well. I wonder if that is a dog thing that was selected for, or a breed thing that has crossed over into other breeds generations ago?

Michael Wise, my brother in law has two Jack Russels. One would rather retrieve than breathe, and the other would sooner dig a hole (even inside where there is no earth) than anything. This turns me to the individual dog argument.

I felt like I might need to explain my question further, but everyone so far got exactly what I'm asking. I really appreciate you guys and your tolerance for my sometimes general questions.