Dear Forum,

I have already trained my puppies to do the sloppy "down" from the sit with out having to slide it's rear end back. Also, the "Down from the stand" for my puppies is a "Sit from a stand followed by a down from a sit". I just watched the Michael Ellis DVD and realized that my puppies do it all wrong.

I have also been able to train the sit from the stand , the down from the stand and the down from the sit as per the DVD. But I have not given a verbal cue to it yet.

Having said that, here are my questions.

1. Is it possible to now retrain the Sitz, Platz and Sthay with the new body movements or will it cause confusion in the long run?

2. Is it a good idea to just have the proper Sitz, Platz and Sthay with some new commands (English or french) and just leave the old sloppy commands as they are.

3. when I take my dogs into my house, I make them lie down , or just sit and wait for me when I go take a bath or brush my teeth. I really can't enforce a proper "platz" at that time. I just want my dog to lie down and relax but dont care/can't control if it flops over to one side and puts it's head down. What do you competitive obedience folks do with your sit and down on a day to day basis, say when you are working on the computer and you want your dog to just lie down ( off the competition field ) . I hope I am able to explain my question here.

4. My puppies are intrested in biting a rag if I tease them with it. Some have a firm grip while my male dobe (Kaiser) keeps shifting his grip, how to make him hold on firmly.


Thanks in advance.


Ram

Edited by Ramachandran Subramanian (06/28/2010 11:07 PM)
Edit reason: bad english

Hi Ram, I can't help on the grip issue, but you should have no problem or cause any confusion by adding the new commands for the different positions. Just use a new word and your marker training! If dogs can learn to spin right or spin left, shake with their right paw and their left paw, etc... teaching two different positions for a sit or down is pretty much the same thing JMHO. Good luck!

Hi Ram,

I agree with Barbara. Just teach the new behaviors with new verbal cues.

I had 4 different down commands for my GSD, that ranged from what you call a sloppy down to a formal obedience down, for example. So, when you go to take a shower (or whatever) and want your dogs to chill, use the sloppy down command. You'd never use the more formal commands unless the situation warranted it, or else, they'd degrade. And, over time, you have to continue to practice them all, the informal as well as the formal.

leih

I know NOTHING about bitework but Kaiser could be at the age where he is teething and perhaps it hurts a little to bite hard

I have 2 dogs trained in English only, 1 dog trained in German and English and one puppy who was first trained in Hungarian and is now learning English commands as well.

For the English only dogs, I have only 1 down command. If I say "down" and walk away that means to them to maintain the nice straight down. If I say "down, wait" that means to them, this is going to be long term so I can lay down, sit or stand as long as I don't leave this spot.

For the bilingual dogs, I taught only the straight down using their "other" language and used English for the lazy commands.

So, for the training part. It is a lot harder to retrain a lazy down than to teach it straight from the start, but it can be done. Here is what you do:

1. Grab your hungry, rested puppy/dog (Yes, even the older ones can learn this too)

2. Go back to basics with luring the dog into position. Teach only 1 style per session, break it up with lots of play

3. Down from a sit: Lure the dog into a sit, mark, reward. Make sure the sit is straight. If it isn't, your down will not be straight either. Lure the dog forming an "L" shape from the nose, down to the ground and out. Lift the treat quickly so the dog get's it's nose of the ground, mark, then throw the food forward for the dog to get. Repeat. NOW the trick is, you have to be fast. Don't let the dog linger on the ground in the down position. You have to mark and release the dog BEFORE it get's a chance to slide on it's hip. If the dog is quicker than you, just say "oops" get the dog up and try again. ONLY REWARD WHEN IT IS PERFECT

Same goes for down from a stand, go back to basics and lure the position, as soon as the dog hits the ground straight, mark, reward, release. As your dog starts to recognize the position, then you name it and then you can start to lenghthen the time the position is held.

Niomi > For your dogs Sit,Wait or Down,Wait means that they can relax and flop on their side. Am I understanding it right?


Barbara, Leigh & Niomi> I have found that I can physically make the dog do the sharp down from a stand and down from a sit by luring as shown on Michael Ellis DVD. The best thing for me to do is just put the sharp sit,down and stand on a different language and train them separately , right? Is this is the concensus?

Yes Ram, you are right. I only ever tell my dogs to "wait" after a "down" command. The way it works is that they can down, sit or stand up once I have given the command. It isn't really to get them to hold the position, but more to get them to hold the spot. It almost replicates them being tethered to something. While they are in the command, they can get up, turn around, sit, laydown, whatever. As long as they do not leave the space that I have given them. I usually train this with a mat to use as a target area. So anywhere on the mat in any position, but don't leave the mat.

Since you have already trained the "down" as the lazy down, you should use another word for your straight down. It doesn't need to be another language, but I have fun training my dogs in different languages so why not! But yes, keep the commands seperate so you have use of commands for a relaxed home life and for Obedience training and trialing.

Hey Ramachandran!

I am going through this very problem as we speak. Basically I got the video about a month too late and realized "Crud I have to redo these!" I actually just retrained them with the same command, I didn't really think to just change the name and make a new one <--Might have been easier. It did work though.

I stopped using the commands I had already taught, sit, down, until I retaught them. I just lured and marked then started using the words like they never had heard them before. It worked pretty well.

The command I use for "stay there however the heck you want to" is just "relax." As long as they stay where I told them its fine!

Hope this helps. Isn't Ellis's training awesome!?

With Falcon, I never trained the "stay" command. Sit means sit until "break!", down means down until "break!" place means, place, etc... My other dogs, I've always trained the commands separately, but found this works very well.

I personally would keep it simple (and in my mind, more clear to the dog), and use a new command for the new position. JMHO

Edited by Barbara Schuler (06/29/2010 08:45 PM)
Edit reason: one more of my typos...