Hi there - this is my first post to the forum. I love reading but haven't jumped in yet.

I have a 12 week old female GSD called Ziggy, I've had her for 4 weeks. She is absolutely wonderful but also very strong minded and has no problem biting back after increasingly strong corrections. My corrections have started at No and increased in strength, then gone on to me holding her by the jowls and staring into her face and increasing the strength of No.

My challenge is she still bites straight back at me when I put her down. I am absolutely convinced this is a pack position discussion. I have bought 4 of the Leerburg videos but haven't seen anything addressing this point.

Can anyone offer any suggestions before my arms turn into bloody stumps?

Thanks,
Angelique

Sorry Angelique, but what behaviour does a 12 week old puppy exhibit that you feel she needs to be corrected for?

Is she nipping, biting?

Whatever it is, I'm sure it's normal puppy behavior. If you stop now, and allow the awesome folks of this board to give you some advise on redirection, exercise and training, you may be able to work through this correction free and be able to have a great bond with a confident, well behaved pup. With a dog this young, corrections only teach them not to trust you.

So to start? What training have you done?

Are you familiar with marker training?

Exercise routine?

Hi Niomi,

Thanks for your reply!

The issue I'm having is with the biting not nipping, there's a very clear difference between each behavior.

I'm working with her about 6 times a day for 3 minutes. On marker training, she understands the value of yes so at the moment we're working on sit and down.

Exercise, I walk her for about 5-10 minutes 3 times a day and then we have 3-4 play sessions.

I'd love to find a way to redirect her rather than correct her - I'm all ears, as is Ziggy :-)

Thanks,
Angelique

Ok, so I am guessing she is a working line female as with my 5 month old her bites are actually puppy nipping, but full on. I have had more than one puncture into my hand, I learned to wear gloves when I played with her until she got the hang of grabbing the tug instead of me.

So I kept a dishcloth or leather tug, or whatever your choice of toy is on me AT ALL TIMES.

So when she was tethered to me or on the long line outside playing and she started to go into drive, I pulled out my tug and let her bite onto that instead. When she had it, I would just play with her very lightly, when she let go I get her focused on it again. If she drops it and walks away, just put it away until the next time she feels like snacking on a hand sandwich. VERY QUICKLY she learned the source of the fun was in biting the toy instead of me. The trick when moving the tug around is to keep it on the ground and only flick your wrist not your whole arm. Or, you can attach the rag to a leash and drag it on the ground for her.

Exercise wise, I tried doing the 10 minute walks with my pup when she was that young and then a lot of free play. Well let me tell you that did not work! Even with 5, 3 minute sessions of marker training a day. So I taught her how to retrieve using the two ball method. She got it really quickly, so I would go out about 2-3 times a day, do about 15 minutes of retrieving, then a 10 minute walk for potty breaks, then 3-5 minutes of marker training. Now she is up to about 30 minutes of retrieving and 3, 10-15 minute sessions of marker training. She also does 2, hour long classes a week with me, unless I am teaching.

So morning, noon, after work, and before bed. I had to exercise her and keep her mind working. With a high drive pup it is the only way. Up until she was 4 1/2 months I expect I worked her for about 3 1/2 hours a day, not including free time.

I found that structured exercise mixed with marker training was WAY more effective in draining her energy then just letting her run around and have free play. She does get free play though, but I don't count it as a source of energy drainage for her. This is all JME and I hope others chime in!

Hi Angelique,

Welcome to you and Ziggy! I'm really glad you have found Leerburg! Niomi has given you excellent advice and I agree with it 100% and only want to add a few things...

A 12 week old puppy is a baby and is really too young for corrections - mainly because she has no idea what she is being corrected for. Keep in mind she has no idea what you you upset about; 12 week old puppies bite as a normal phase of growing up. So she is doing what comes naturally, and you are getting upset and frustrated with her (understandably) which makes NO sense to her in her little puppy brain. (Many of us don't introduce corrections to our dogs until they have been taught a command under many levels of distractions and we KNOW they understand what we are telling them but chose to ignore us. )

You will often here "a good pup is a tired pup" around here, and for good reason... When all that excess energy is spent on playing and running and exercising, the desire to eat hands and fingers diminishes considerably.

Like Niomi, I kept rags or soft tugs in my pockets and around the house when Falcon was that age. We also used a stuffed animal tied to the end of a rope on a pole (very technically advanced we are around these parts...) and I ran the yard like an idiot letting Falcon chase me and the stuffed duck. I lost a bit of weight I needed to lose and Falcon got tired out.

Try the redirecting, wearing gloves, more exercise, etc... and I think you will be able to get your pup through this phase without the need for corrections at this age.

We'd love to see a pic of Ziggy!

I have a cattle dog cross who would get PISSED at times as a pup and bite back at me.
Someone on the forum suggested that when he was getting that wound up, I should just put him away (crate or outside alone).
It really helped us. Just a time out, until "you settle down and can be a nice dog". Then I would try not to do any more the thing that was really stimulating him to that crazy level.
He's a lot better now (10 mos).

Did you happen to read:

http://leerburg.com/bitingpuppies.htm

??
Good article. Sounds like you are doing alot right. I'm sure you will persevere!

Hi there,

Wow, thanks so much for the advice.

It sounds like I need to kick the exercise and the play up a notch. I've been trying to be really careful about getting her enough sleep and so not taking her out of the crate to play and exercise all the time. I've also been worried about how much exercise is too much in terms of being careful with her elbows and hips. I'm dying to walk her more and she seems she can take more but trying to figure out what amount of time/distance is ideal.

Niomi I love your suggestion of having a complete session with a series of different activities and then putting her away. Barbara I'm already scheming about how to build my animal pole - that's a great idea.

Betty I think putting her away rather than trying to win the battle if it gets to that is also really helpful. I guess it's tough to determine when you should push to establish pack structure vs. just stop the discussion.

Aron, thanks for the article, I've listed to the podcast a while ago but need to revisit this and read it through again.

There's so much to learn it's mind blowing! But such a fun challenge.

A couple more questions since you guys have been such a huge help!

I've seen the tug toy as something I bring out during allocated play time rather than my all time protection - I think that's a big mind shift that will make a massive difference. Do you guys have a recommendation on which one is good for this? I've got the awesome fleece one but that's a bit big to carry around. Is this 8" one a good choice? http://leerburg.com/thinpuppytug.htm

Any rule of thumb on the amount of time/distance I can walk her and how that changes as she keep growing by the minute?

Here's the Zig-Monster as I call her affectionately ;-)

http://www.zafu.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/2010.06%20-%20Ziggy%20closeup.jpg

Thanks again - it's such a relief to have some help.
Angelique

p.s. it sounds like a welding mask and gloves may be a good investment, I didn't see those on leerburg.com? ….!

Angelique, if this is a consultation, my Chico is the same way, or use to be. Not as much now. Sometimes I ignore him, sometimes I challenge him after no does not work, I get in his space, and when he wants to grab or jump, I am inches away so he don't have room, this goes on for about a minute. then he gives up. I exercise a good amount and play somewhat with him. Not too much OB, short sessions. Hope this help at least a little. is a battle of wills in my opinion. Dan

 Quote: angelique augereau

It sounds like I need to kick the exercise and the play up a notch. I've been trying to be really careful about getting her enough sleep and so not taking her out of the crate to play and exercise all the time. I've also been worried about how much exercise is too much in terms of being careful with her elbows and hips. I'm dying to walk her more and she seems she can take more but trying to figure out what amount of time/distance is ideal.


There's so much to learn it's mind blowing! But such a fun challenge.


I've seen the tug toy as something I bring out during allocated play time rather than my all time protection - I think that's a big mind shift that will make a massive difference. Do you guys have a recommendation on which one is good for this? I've got the awesome fleece one but that's a bit big to carry around. Is this 8" one a good choice? http://leerburg.com/thinpuppytug.htm

Any rule of thumb on the amount of time/distance I can walk her and how that changes as she keep growing by the minute?



p.s. it sounds like a welding mask and gloves may be a good investment, I didn't see those on leerburg.com? ….!

Beautiful little girl you have there! I swear it looks like SHE is wearing a welding mask, so yep, the gloves might be a good investment!

I had the same concern as do you regarding hips and elbows so I didn't allow jumping up for toys, off of decks, etc... until much older. I don't know if there is a rule of thumb on how much running (on soft surfaces only) but picture her if she were still with her siblings - they would be tearing all over the place after each other. You might just come up with a "Plan A" schedule - x amount for walking, x amount for playing/retrieving/chasing you and the pole animal, and x amount for marker training and try it for a few days and see how she does. You might find she needs a bit more play or walking, or a bit less. Also keep the heat in mind - that really effects Falcon's (and mines...) desire and ability to be outdoors.

We had that exact tug and loved it. You could even put a clip on your belt look which would hold the handle on it (as long as you can unclip it easliy) if you don't want to shove it in a pant's pocket. I also used old dish towels knotted in the middle because they were easy to have on hand and easy to wash.

You are so right - there is sooo much to learn, but you and your pup have a long time together to do so. If I had to do it again, I would RELAX and enjoy it more at that age instead of worrying so much as to if I was doing things wrong and not TEACHING enough every day. I'd have started marker training earlier - it is sooo much fun. So just try to enjoy this little monster stage - it REALLY does go by pretty quickly and I'm surprised at how much I miss it... in a way.