Most (if not all) of the trainers I've seen slip the sleeve when giving the dog a bite, regardless if the dog is being trained for PSD, PPD or Schutzhund. Is this pretty much the norm for training for all of the above-mentioned types of dogs?

Depends on where the PSD or PPD's are at in their training - more of their work will be done on bite suits ( you can let the dog take the jacket by releasing it, same idea in that the dog gets a reward to carry ) as the dogs advance in their training.

PSD and PPD's will also advance to muzzle work and hidden sleeve training, which you won't see most SchH dogs doing.

Will, my understanding is that slipping the sleeve rewards the dog for their victory. My dog was not trained in this fashion and couldn't care less about the sleeve. His reward seems to be the elimination of the threat, for example, the decoy beaten and withdrawing. And that is why I was wondering if there are any trainers or types of training that do NOT involve slipping the sleeve. Thanks for your input.

Patrick.... If your dog is ignoring the sleeve and focusing on the man, that's a GOOD thing if you want to produce a good PPD.

Police and personal protection trainers are always working to put that focus on the man and remove it from the equipment as Will pointed out regarding hidden sleeve and muzzle work. With some dogs this is a difficult task depending on how their foundation training was laid.


It sounds like your dog is getting his reward from the fight with the man... you can't ask for better! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Patrick,
my male GSD is the same way - as long as he can see the decoy, he spits out the sleeve and prepares to re-engage the decoy. And he has a level 9 grip ( as per Bernhard ), so it's not a grip issue.
If he's out of sight of the helper, he'll hold on to the sleeve for 30 mins.
My view is that dogs that are fighting the decoy in aggression ( a rare thing ) are obviously less sleeve oriented as long as there's a chance for a fight with the decoy.

Is this pretty much the norm for training for all of the above-mentioned types of dogs?
As far a Schutzhund goes, I think it depends on the training philosophy of the particular club. My experience is limited to 3 clubs, all with a bit different style of training:

One was run by a working officer in charge (at that time) of the citys K9 program. Dogs were taught to focus on the man, not the equipment. The sleeve was slipped very seldom and then only at the end of a session. If the helper then moved, the dog was expected to spit it out and go after the man.

The second is run by a helper who trained under old style german trainers. Lots of compulsion, and the dogs are trained to focus on the man, not the equipment. Some slipping of the sleeve, but not unless the dog was darn near perfect in the execution of the exercise.

The third is a club that contains several highline dogs. Protection is taught like an obedience exercise with the dog getting the sleeve as a reward for obeying a command.

Different strokes for different folks...

Originally posted by Patrick Murray:
His reward seems to be the elimination of the threat, for example, the decoy beaten and withdrawing. Patrick, IMO, training this way is the best way. They can't give enough points for the practical working dogs.

Thank you all. I have a difficult time finding trainers/enthusiasts to take bites from him in my area. The guy I just started working with is a Schutzhund trainer and is 10 minutes away and only charges $15 to take some bites. So I'm loving that, especially considering that my 4 year old dog has only been able to bite like twice in the last year.

However, perhaps I need to be more clear with him in explaining that my dog is a PPD and will never participate in Schutzhund. No knock on Schutzhund.

I've only been with this guy twice so far. On the second visit (last night) my dog alerted on him when he saw him walking in our direction. The trainer told me my dog needs to learn to calm down. But it's not like my dog was freaking out at all. Yes, he alerted. In my mind I'm thinking that my dog views this guy as a threat based on his experience with him a few days before. It's no different than if some creep had hassled us at our home. My dog takes it very seriuos. I think that's a good thing.

Also, he's been slipping the sleeve and telling me to "run my dog off". And so I have. But my dog spits it out pretty quickly and while I'm not into the carrying the sleeve thing, I don't want to tell the expert that it's not important. What do I know?

And then he had me send my dog. I did. The trainer made the mistake of slipping the sleeve (without telling me he was going to do so otherwise I would have strongly suggested to the contrary) and my dog spit out the sleeve and tried to bite him in his ribs. Fortunately the trainer deflected my dog a bit and so the bite was only minor. And while he was deflecting my dog he also hit him with his whip/stick thing. In the same instant I was outing my dog and recalling him. All of this happened in about 3 seconds.

Overall this trainer seems to have a poor view of my dog. But he's lucky that my dog is perhaps better than he realized. Because he outs and recalls perfectly and instantly. No kidding. And if I hadn't recalled him my dog would not have backed down from the stick/whip thing. He would have eaten that guy's lunch.

All I wanted to do was get my dog some PPD work. After last night I'm not sure who is getting the lesson, us or the "trainer". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The good news is I've been talking with a trainer in American Street Ring and I like what I hear. These guys seem to be real world and I think he will be infinitely more qualified to recognize what my dog does well and not so well and help us to be better. It's a bit of a drive (2 hours) but it's probably worth it.

Your dog does need to calm down. If you want a PPD you want the dog to alert on command. So you have to have control of your dog, your dog listening to you for the command. Not reacting on its own, especially in your presence.

Mr. Morris, I'm not sure if the word "alert" was correct on my part or not. From my dog's perspective he had an altercation with a threatening individual. A couple of days later my dog spotted that same indivual again and "alerted" to his presence. I did command my dog to relax and he did. In my book my dog is not "out of control".

Let me take it a step further. What if the original altercation had been for real and what if it had occured in my home as opposed to a training field? And what if my dog spotted the perp approaching our home while my family and I are having dinner? Should the dog "alert" and thus warn of this threat? Or should the dog remain silent?

Hopefully I can disagree with you without coming across as disagreeable, but I think it is ok for the dog to "alert" me to a known threat. If I'm wrong, please let me know why. I appreciate your feedback. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />