In a discussion with another dog owner the topic of what makes a dog intelligent came up. He defends his position by saying though his dog is superior to the standard its a matter of not being being represented in numbers.

His argument begans like this. He agreed that on average the GSD is easier to train, but beleives this is not benifit because they just conform and are less intelligent overall because of this.

What the hel$, boy when anything is at the top its butt does become a target.

He states.
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Intelligent

don't worry about stepping on my toes. i wear steel toe boots for that very reason :-)

Well, again what is intelligence? my theory is based on the fact that is not in dispute in any circle. the human is the hardest to train precisely because of his intelligence.

when speaking of a dog , if you are referring to intelligence as trainability, biddability or willingness you may get one result. if you are referring to intelligence as ability to comprehend, compute and apply information to a certain situation the result may be quite a bit different .

Several of us at a dog trial , in the old days,with a "german master trainer" as judge asked what he though was the smartest(some people's term for intelligent) breed.

He smiled and said in his experince it was easier to describe in this fashion. The shep makes a very good soldier in the army. the rott does not want to be in the army. the rs and the dobe believe they should be officers in the army.
:rolleyes:

As I said, it is interesting learning what others believe.
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Ditto. DBA

Not sure I completely understand your post (clearly I'm not the most intelligent <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ) but imo the most intelligent dog is the GSD, not that I'm biased or anything. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> If you need confirmation, just ask VanCamp <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

They say the Poodle is, then the Border Collie. It goes back to trainability. Many dogs are intelligent but it just comes back to trainability. That's what I think many people do when ranking the breeds.

Of course, take this with a grain of salt because many -experts- I've read on the net will say that the best PPDog is a BullMastiff or Dobermann, etc.

Stan I totally agree with you and I am bias.

What he was saying in the statement that the GSD is a good soldier and that the RS and Dobbies think they are officers. He is implying that the RS and Dobbies because of they are hard headed and stuborn, they may be considered as more intelligent. (I really don't know what he was try to say about the Rot.)

The RS is harder to train, but he still believes it is an overall smarter dog because the above character traits.

Not to beat a dead horse but, if this was the case wouldn't you see more of them in PPT. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brad you are right the test that I saw list the Border collie #1, Poddle #2, GSD #3, Dobbie #4, Lab #5, 6,7,8 little dogs don't matter, #9 Rottie.

I agree it all goes back to trainiablity, some people want to add intangiables because the facts are diffucult to shallow. They would have people think that a dog that is hard headed or stuborn gives a dog intelligence and character. I think they are only half right.

But who neeeds unmeasurable traits in a Pet, Companion, or Working dog that is hard headed. This defines an undependable dog. Doing things because he/she wants to not only make you look like a lousy trainer but could be dangerous for the general public and the safety of the dog.

I look at it not as a debate of which dog is the most intelligent, but what is acceptable expectations for dog or trainer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Who would you rather have playing point guard,Jason Kidd or Albert Einstien.Its all about application and trainabilty.I would think to test dogs true intelligence you would have to come up with a very unique test that could test them on pratical things that only apply to a dogs world and is completely removed from anything human.I would bet with a test like that there probably isnt that much of a swing in the different breeds.Then again I could be wrong,wouldnt be the first time.

Don,

If you would like to debate this persons point of view you would be better served doing it on the forum that the quote you lifted was posted on. The only reason to challange his opinion here is the lack of intestinal fortitude or intelligence to debate the person you disagree with.

Intelligence is such a subjective term that any research done is totaly dependant on the particular definition used. That makes any research almost totaly subjective. You can always select measurements that one breed/individual will do better on than another. Measurements of trainability are just that, measurements of trainability. Measurements of problem solving are just measurements of problem solveing.

Though I generaly agree with the person whose quote you lifted, I do disagree that the RS (Giant) is difficult to train. I have found them fairly easy to train. You do have to think a bit to vary the routine to keep them interested. If you want a cookie cutter program they may not be the best choice. I have seen plenty of GSD's that were the same way. Having worked with many different breeds, and individuals within breeds and watched and participated in the training of others I will say that you will get out of training what you put in. The finished dog will usually look very much like what you want. The reason is that you will train for what you want. If you want an independant thinker you will teach those skills as well as the the descisions you consider proper. If you just want a dog that follows orders with no independant thought, that can also be trained. It is probably easier to do.

I agree that intelligence is a very subjective term. It would make a lot more sense to talk about genetic predisposition’s to function in a certain capacity. I would also disagree with the statement that humans are difficult to train. I could teach (train) anyone on this list a novel trick within a second that would take a dog weeks to learn.

I don't know about that, My wife has been trying to train me to pick up my socks for years.
Art

I guess I would have to pick a behavior that your more genetically predisposed to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />