I have a confirmed rank drive female, 11 month old GSD pup. Schz.III German lines with an extremely high prey drive. She's my sixth GSD and has been the puppy from hell. I'll be honest, she is driving us crazy and we are almost at the end of our ropes. She has amazing abilities and when calm, is affectionate and charming. She LOVES my kids, LOVES people and will play with all dogs. I wish I knew more how to handle her. I was told this web site deals with high drive dogs, but true rank drive dogs? I cannot become her leader no matter what I've tried. She is constantly challenging me, constantly disobeying me, always mouthing me and is now gowling/showing teeth when I correct her. Don't ask me if I do all the basic demands for a dominant dog ie. eat first, etc. That's a no brainer. She feels no pain, or doesn't care, she's fearless. I've actually punched her in the nose so hard and she comes right back at me. Anything physical I do to her, she comes back HARDER. I would have to knock her out for her to not come back at me. Ed states to correct them so hard they think they're losing their life. HA! I ended fetch the other day because she started to get too demanding, she got mad at me, started to attack the couch, I corrected her so hard, she rolled over a few times, got up, shook her head and then went back and attacked the couch! She is out of control by stealing stuff around the house and running with it. She's laughing at us!! We keep a line with a prong on her at all times for instant corrections, I've tethered her to me, etc. etc. I would be very surprised if someone came up with something that I haven't tried. But, please try!

She is completely hand signal trained, is in advanced obedience classes BUT as of last two classes, started to "go after" other dogs IN CLASS! I've corrected her so hard, people were upset with me! and, she still did it again. I'm on my fourth trainer and not one can help me with her because I know not many have seen this type of rank drive. They think you correct this dog like a NORMAL high drive dog and she SHOULD listen.

Anyway, after going through this site, it appears that an electronic collar might be in order? I never considered it because I was told she was too young. From what I've read, Ed states you can start them early and it looks like I should have. or, should I sharpen some of the prongs, or try something else I haven't thought of? Wow, I've said a lot.

Any thoughts?

Estee,

I have got some thoughts. There is a difference between correcting your dog and abusing your dog. I would think since this is your sixth Shepherd you would have a clue how to handle one with a little higher drive. Maybe you could try a Kennel to raise the dog in, then you would not have to punch it in the nose when it gets into trouble while in the house. Better yet try to find a a good home for the Shepherd, and start raising goats.

Brad

If you go to the e collar please learn how to use it. It's not to be used as a cure all and you can't correct personality. An introduction to the collar should be done properly. I use e collar training with customers but it's only a small part of training. If it worked as a cure all I'd put one on some of my cliants. Also don't use a punch in the face as a correction. There are so many tools out there and you need to use them. It's good that you have started using this discussion board because that's one. Take a step back and learn some more. Feel free to e mail me, there's another tool!

Brad, Oh please, I'm sorry if you got the impression that I wound up with a tight fist and punched her lights out. When I "punched" her, it was after this: she wouldn't go down, I put her in a down, she grabbed by hand, I pop her hard and put her in a down, she sits up, I popped her hard and put her in a down and say "down!", she grabbs my hand, I pop her harder, make her go down, she sits up. OK, I'm standing on the leash to keep her down, she bites at my feet. It hurts, etc. I let go, she sits up and goes for my hands. The prong doesn't mean anything, the "punch" certainly didn't phase her. Do you think for one minute I should walk away and not put this dog in a down? I'm told not to alpha roll her. I grabbed her leash to start healing, doing obedience stuff and she grabbed me in the butt!! Do you think for one minute Ed would put up with this? This is "a little higher drive?". I know its unbelievable, but I guarantee your shepherds have been like my other five. I'm not talking about your typical dog, that's why I came to this site in hopes that someone has had a dog like this. I will give the dog up if I have to, but I'm afraid it will be to another GSD owner that also thinks they know how to handle her just because she's a GSD. Then she COULD get abused, kicked or worse, get sent to a shelter. I'm trying to do the right thing by seeking out help, seeking out a trainer that can help me.(haven't found one yet). No Brad, I do not abuse my dog and yes, I do know how to handle the TYPICAL gsd.

Dale, thanks, if I went with an e-collar, I understand Ed has a video on how to use it. In fact, I'm going to video her and go for a free video <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would prefer to find a trainer that has experience locally, but haven't found one yet that would let me have one on a pup. But then, I haven't found one that's dealt with true rank drive, either.

To clear up the "punch" so it doesn't get dwelled on, it happend once because my hands were getting bloody and no amount of popping was stopping her. Even the "punch" didn't stop her, so there was no need to ever do it again. I will not do it again. Don't feel badly for her, she didn't blink an eye. I came to the realization, that this dog is superdog and feels no pain. Fears nothing, not a loud noise, not a person, not even a much larger dog that has been aggressive with her. It's kind of neat in a way because I have GSDs for protection and she could be the ultimate protector if I ever get her under control.

Sometimes physical correction is needed, depending on the dog, and the circumstance.

I have a 7 month Mal who becomes very unclear once he gets loaded up, and comes at me in a big way.. I had to choke him off me twice.. which IMO was too many times, the correction was obviously not severe enough. Repeated corrections of this kind in my opinion ARE abuse.

I had 3 options, #1 - sell the dog (not an option LOL) #2 - risk getting seriously hurt by him at some point, or #3 make it so that the next time he came at me the correction was severe enough that he sure as sugar wasn't going to try it again.

It happened.. at a trial, LOL... and I flattened him, literally. (I won't go into details, but I am confident the dog thought his days were gone) - since then I have had no problems at all with him.

Just some thoughts...

Ohhhhh, Sammy, I couldn't do that. I know something has to be done, but I'm hoping another solution is in order. Someone is going to help me without my having to get so physical with her. I can't believe your dog went near you or trusted you after that. That would kill me.

Peter, that is such a good point. I've often thought that when I've yanked as hard as I could and get no response, if more strenghth on my part would be more effective. The other day in class when she went after a dog, she yelped when I corrected her. Is that considered hard enough? The trainer told me if I get a yelp, it's hard enough. What do you think? Keep in mind, it didn't matter to her, so really, is it hard enough? But physically, did I give her a hard enough correction if she stopped dead in her tracks and yiped?

Originally posted by Estee Dibbs:
Ohhhhh, Sammy, I couldn't do that. I know something has to be done, but I'm hoping another solution is in order. Someone is going to help me without my having to get so physical with her. I can't believe your dog went near you or trusted you after that. That would kill me. It all depends on the dog.

I knew before hand that it certainly would not affect his performance on the field, although I wasn't sure how he would react towards me afterwards. He really didn't give a rip. Of course I wouldn't suggest doing this on a soft dog - this dog is very intense, very extreme and hard as nails - he wasn't biting me and releasing - he was biting, and regripping, biting down harder, and when I got him off that specific spot, he would nail me elsewhere. After the last episode I got pretty hurt on both arms and my leg! He *needed* what I gave to him, and I would have no second thoughts on doing it again if need be. That kind of behavior needs to be curbed ASAP. It is more cruel to constantly give weak corrections.

Again.. the severity of the correction is very much dependant on the dog.

I'm amazed that no one has asked yet "how did you train the dog to down?" you say you told the dog to down and she sat up...after repeated corrections the dog still sat up. granted, she sounds like she has a very high pain tolerance and at the same time does not cower after your repeated corrections. you claim at the same time the dog is very high drive...if this is so, perhaps you should, when you place your order for videos from ed, buy the flinks "building drive focus and grip" and learn how to motivate a "high drive" dog to learn your commands rather than over the top compulsion. if i'm wrong in assuming that you did not train the dog fully before giving these super corrections i apologise...i just HATE to hear about and see people brag about how "hard" and "tough" and "rank" their dogs are when in reality the handler is just beating the dog up and the dog happens to have a high pain tolerance