I am really confused now. I have a working German Sheppard which I got around nine months ago. The dog did not come with any obedience training. Now the problem is that my dog is submissive in every manner except when he is in a high drive and receives a leash correction in combination with a prong collar. The dog responds by attacking the leash or me if I'm within distance. From what I have read this leads me to believe he may be very sensitive to pain. The only complication to this theory is that the dog also shows aggression when I reach for the string on the ball as it is in his mouth. The dog will show aggressive behavior such as lifting his lips. I am stuck in this loop of correcting the dog for the undesired behavior and then correcting the dog for the reaction to the correction. So I am not sure if I have a aggressive dog problem or a pain sensitive dog. There has got to be a better way. Does anyone have a suggestion?

James,

From what you've said so far it sounds like a relational problem. Even if the dog is dominant or pain sensitive or both it's all the more reason to not use compulsion except for manners (at least at this point). Your dog is working up the guts to strike because (my OP) it feels mistreated or disrespected. Depending on the dog, but to much compulsion at your dogs age can easily characterize your relationship with him rather than make it.
I wouldn't worry to much about the submissive thing right now. Focus on getting your dog to want to do what you want it to do.

Confusing and/or confused post.....



In addition to MHO being similar to Michael's, folks will want to know:

How old was the dog when you got him?

What is the goal with this working GSD?

What is the behavior you are correcting for?

James,
How old was the dog when you brought the dog to IT'S home? So how old is the dog?
What kind of foundation have you done since bringing the dog to IT'S home?
Who is reading these extremes in dog behavior? Are they qualified?
What are you trying to accomplish with this dog?
How often do you get to work with this dog? ie. What is the schedule for exercise, for work, for play?

I'm confused and have too many questions to iterate from/by your post. I have no doubt your dog feels the same way day to day.
Nothing to help a confused dog like a good routine they can count on everyday.

So your question is what? Is it pain? Is it dominance? How to deal with either or both?
Seems like there's more questions that need to be asked and answered here James.
From my experience though, pain/fear and dominance don't really go together at all.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Let me see if I can answer all the questions here.

1.My dog was imported from Holland at the age of sixteen months old. He Had some IPO training but none in obedience. I have now had the dog for nine months(Makes him 2years and one month old). 2.The ultimate goal is for the dog to be certified in narcotics detection and patrol work (Bite work, tracking, building searches).
3.I work with my dog every single day. My dog lives with me and gets approximately fifteen minutes of run time in every morning.
4.About the routine, he has a very set routine which I follow everydy.

Just to clarify some of the outstanding questions regarding my training. I use clicker training with the least amount of compulsion as possible. But when we perform a high drive style training I.E Bite training, my dog does not tolerate leash corrections with a pinch collar or E-Collar. A flat collar has no effect. When he receives a correction on the pinch collar he reacts by turning around and attacking the leash. Obviously this is not a behavior that can continue. A few days ago we were teaching the dog to detain a suspect. When the dog gets approximately eight feet away from the suspect the dog is suppose to down. The dog had been taught the procedure and knew he was suppose to down. I sent the dog to detain the decoy and the dog ran past the down mark. The dog was given a level five or six leash correction to remind him to down. The dog turned around and attacked the line and forgot about the decoy. Then when he does get the bite he refuses to release. Rather the decoy slips the sleeve or I take him off right there the dog attempts to bite me every time.

15 min of run time??? Your kidding, right? What does he do the rest of the day? Training, play, just hanging out, crate/kennel time, etc etc. What exactly IS his schedule.

Sounds like you have a number of things going on with this dog. It is possible that it is not a good match & or not a good relationship with the dog.

The dog keeps reidrecting at the leash, you..... Sounds like you need someone experienced to train with. Are you working with a qualified trainer? Having a dog redirect during work does not mean that the dog is dominate or pain sensitive. If he had domanice issues you would be seeing it other places then just in work. The same with pain sensitivity. It is often just a bleed out of drive & no where to put it at that moment (frustration)that causes them to redirect.

Sounds like some of the foundation may not be solid as it could be. Are you trying to move too quickly in his training? The dog may not be totally clear on what you are asking. Maybe take a step back in his training & then move forward more slowly.

Not sure what you mean about not tollerating a correction. Could be that the corrections are not enough to communicate the fact that the behavior is not acceptable. If you are doing nagging corrections that can just piss a dog off by being anoying not productive. Not easy to say over the net what is going on without seeing it all. You need to work with someone that can read this dog & is experienced enough to see what you are or are not doing that may be causing or contributing to this.

We can all guess & give you suggestions,but you really need to be working with someone that knows what they are doing. If you continue to do the wrong things you could be setting yourself up to get really hurt. This dog is 2 & coming into maturity & that can ramp things up even further. Good luck with your dog. Possibly this dog is not suitable for the work that you want it to do. Just some thoughts.

James,
What does your TD say about this?
Hmmm, what is his suggestions for correcting this conflict?

It sounds to me to be more of redirecting issue than anything else.
Have you tried trading something for an out? Say something else he can bite rather than a correction? Perhaps work from there?

And on the coming up the leash business.
The dog may get away with that once with me, after that I'd be looking for him the next time. Only the next time he'd have a dominate collar on and I'd use it.
Respect needs to be remembered from both ends of the leash.

*disclaimer*
Any of that only has any meaning if I'm reading you and your dog right.

If my dog isn't learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

So I have seen some improvement with my dog. I believe I have been confusing my dog with ineffective and unneeded corrections. I have cleaned up my obedience training and my dog is responding great. He seems much happier and responsive. I have concluded that the overreaction to the corrections during training is because we have been moving way to fast with the bite work. I am still working on earning my dogs trust but things are going great now.

Glad things have gotten better.

As I had said above, sometimes it helps to take a step back & start over & SLOW down when going forward again. It is dificult for a dog to respond positively to training, when it is confused about what you are asking or getting corrections that either are too little or too harsh, either one will confuse things further in the dog's mind.

Remember you have many years in which to work with a dog in training,it doesn't all have to happen in the first 6 mo or a year of ownership. Take your time & enjoy your dog & training.

Since it's in the police section, and admittedly I know nothing of sport, I'll make two observations. Based on your description of this dog; 1. it's got some real nerve issues 2. it does not seem like it is a suitable candidate for police work. I don't know how hard you are "cranking" on the prong, but I'd venture to say, at some point, he's been "cranked" pretty good on more than one occasion.

DFrost