Obviously, Ed knows a tremendous amount about dogs, and I enjoy this site and his tapes. However, in the dog aggression where he is discussing a dog situation that is also a potential legal situation I have the following concern. (Please note that the following is not legal advice)

In the following excerpts of Ed's article on dog aggression:

"When a strange dog approaches (if I have my dog out for a walk) I become very aggressive towards this strange dog...I begin with a serious warning...If this doesn’t work I am looking for something to hit this other dog with. If I have pepper gas I will gas a strange dog in a heart beat - right in front of his owner...I will never gamble that a strange dog is going to be friendly with my puppy. Until I know the temperament of another dog and I am sure he will not attack my dog I have to deal with it my way."

Under the facts as given, when you refuse to gamble that the dog will be friendly and spray pepper spray on the dog that hasn't yet shown aggression, right in front of its owner, doesn't it actually play out that:

Some of the pepper spray gets on the dog owner (or he testifies that it does). Thus the action against the dog who has shown no aggression (which will likely be found not legally justified or reasonable) becomes criminal charges not just for spraying the dog, but for a battery against the owner. Then there is the civil suit for any damages. Assume that you follow the article's advice and state that you were afraid for your personal safety. But the dog owner is saying that his dog did nothing, that you started screaming like a maniac and spraying them. Then a witness or two that you didn't notice says the same thing to the police (and later in court). You still probably lose.

Then of course, there is the possibility that the other dog owner may also physically attack you. A few people out there might even pull a gun out and shoot you. The best you can even hope for is a cuss fight with the other owner that doesn't turn violent. In fact, if my understanding of Ed's procedure is correct, he seems more likely to be injured or killed by an enraged dog owner than he is by an otherwise violent criminal.

Perhaps Ed's dogs are so valuable and so many hours have went into training them that he feels it necessary to disregard the law, and the possibility of criminal charges, civil damages, or injury to himself in order to protect them from even the remote possibility of injury. But shouldn't the rest of us use tactics which don't bring us such huge potential problems?

I think the point is that by acting verbally aggressive towards the dog first, 9 times out of ten the dog will move away and the pepper spray will not be necessary. Plus how far away is the owner? If the strange dog is on a leash, I'm sure a verbal signal to the owner may be enough for him to pull his dog away. If the strange dog is not on a leash, even if the owner is near by, if your dog is on a leash then it would be self-defence. I understand your point but I think that the odds of your scenario developing(irate owner, shooting, ect) are about as slim as the odds of actually needing to use the pepper spray. I think that there also is judgement involved. Remember, someone like Ed has been around a few aggressive dogs in his day and can read a dog's body language pretty well. Obviously not everyone else can do the same. Some common sense has to come into play. I don't think anyone means gas any dog that comes near without first verbally intimidating the dog. However, if I saw that their was no owner around, I'm sure I would be a hell of a lot faster on the trigger finger.

If the owner was around....I'd spray the jerk too just for the hell of it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (JOKE)

VanCamp, how was that for ya? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Torre wrote: Some of the pepper spray gets on the dog owner (or he testifies that it does). Thus the action against the dog who has shown no aggression (which will likely be found not legally justified or reasonable) becomes criminal charges not just for spraying the dog, but for a battery against the owner. Then there is the civil suit for any damages. Assume that you follow the article's advice and state that you were afraid for your personal safety. But the dog owner is saying that his dog did nothing,

Joe Noble: The bottom line is if the dog is OFF leash than the owner is most likely breaking the law anyway. This throws most chances of criminal or civil problems right out the window. Even a sympathetic jury can't find for a plaintiff that was breaking the law to begin with by having their dog off leash. Remember, this scenario has the dog approaching you, OFF leash. If the dog is on leash and approaches you then they are the ones who get the pepper gas. LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Even a sympathetic jury can't find for a plaintiff that was breaking the law to begin with by having their dog off leash

Joe, no offense, but that's incorrect legal analysis. Even with the no leash scenario breaking a leash law doesn't make one fair game for a tort or criminal attack. People win lawsuits all the time for huge amounts for torts committed against them while they were breaking a law. People also go to jail for attacking someone who was breaking a law. Remember the guy breaking and entering a store for the third time where the owner had left a booby trapped shotgun? Remember the cops who beat Rodney King who was breaking the law? People are also convicted for cruelty to animals that were not on a leash.

Chuck, you really think the odds of an owner becoming irate over you gassing his dog are slim?
I see cases where people are killed for less, and a battery, which is not uncommon at all, usually does start over such things. It happens.

I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm sure Ed will agree that an open debate over or clarification of his article is helpful. Someone literally following what the article says may end up in trouble.

You could make the argument, properly, that the dog constitutes a threat. Whether it is overtly aggressive or not. If the owner is not controlling the animal (or even present), then the argument would be similar to someone brandishing an unloaded gun. In reality there may be no threat, but you have no real way of evaluating that. At that point you are in legitimate fear for your property (the dog) based on the illegal actions of the other owner. Using a non-lethal force to prevent that would be perfectly reasonable.

In any situation common sense must rule your behavior. To start screamming like an idiot at a dog on leash with the owner is unreasonable. The same actions directed at an uncontrolled (in violation of the law in most areas) dog is reasonable. If the owner cannot/will not recall the dog then taking it a step farther is perfectly reasonable. If the owner is injured in that process, he will be responsible for his own injuries based on his own neglegence.

This brings up something we forget not all dog owners have.... COMMON SENSE

Thursday morning between classes I go out to my car to take Gunther to relieve himself. I see a woman with a Black Lab out in the area I usually take him to so I head about 1/4 mile in a different direction.

After doing his business and cleanup I come out from behind a tractor trailer that was parked to find the woman had basically chased me down. My dog is on leash her dog is not. I tell her from about 30 ft that my dog is not dog friendly.

Her dog approches mine... all I have on Gunther is a rolled leather collar(my mistake) and of course he goes a bit nutty. She then looks at me as if I am the one in the wrong. MY DOG IS ON LEASH and I deliberatly went to the far end of the property to avoid her. Yes, in a perfect situation I would have had a prong on Gunther to have corrected him for his foolishness, but I was unprepared, I will not be again.

In this situation I feel that I was unprepared, but still did the best thing. She on the other hand came over with a dog to an unknown dog off leash.

If Gunther had bit her dog I am almost positive I would have been the one liable in court. After all I am the one with the GSD and who wouldn't want a black lab running loose. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

You can't live your life in fear that someone could pull a gun out for you spraying their dog. If thats the case we all might as well never leave our homes. I'll say this much....if the jerk wants to attack me then he better be armed for his sake. I can't let all those years of martial arts training go to waste now can I?LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It will certainly only be in self-defence.

I know..... no one can block a bullet.LOL

Yes, we have all heard stories of road rage and other violent acts over seemingly ridiculous reasons. Yes...because of this I've exercised restraint when some idiot cuts me off on the road or tailgates or cuts the line at the supermarket. However, if you can't defend yourself and your dog when your innocently walking along, what else is the solution? I will say though...its an interesting discusion. Good posts Torre and Richard.

Good story Schnauzer girl.

I look at it this way. If you went out with your dog 100 times and 100 times you had an encounter with another dog, out of that 100 times, how many times do you think you would actually have to spray the dog? Out of those times, how many times would the other owner physically asault you? Out of those times, how many times would they pull out a gun?

Listen....I'm not suggesting that anyone gamble when it comes to life and death, and I certainly respect Torre's opinion and concern on the matter. All I'm saying is that when it comes to the basic right of someone to defend oneself or his or her property, we shouldn't become so paranoid or afraid that we don't reasonably exercise that right.

I would have to say the odds are slim Chuck.... But then again I live in Maine. We have the highest per capita gun ratio in the country.

I hear you. Anything is certainly possible. I still lean on the side of doing what I have to do to defend my dog and myself.