Okay, I need some clarification. Vader is 5 months old and currently, we don't allow strangers to approach him or other dogs to play with him. The logic of course is that he is going to be a ppd and we want him to ignore everyone except us. I'm concerned about him being properly socialized though since I don't want him to become dog aggressive or completely unfriendly towards new people. My mom came to visit last week and he had a very hard time accepting her. He eventually became friendly but at first he was very protective. The trainer we are talking to said that he should be friendly and approachable as an adult unless the command to protect is given. Should we allow him some time to play with other dogs and meet new people or continue our current strategy? I'm confused....

 Quote: olivia brown

Okay, I need some clarification. Vader is 5 months old and currently, we don't allow strangers to approach him or other dogs to play with him. The logic of course is that he is going to be a ppd and we want him to ignore everyone except us. I'm concerned about him being properly socialized though since I don't want him to become dog aggressive or completely unfriendly towards new people. My mom came to visit last week and he had a very hard time accepting her. He eventually became friendly but at first he was very protective. The trainer we are talking to said that he should be friendly and approachable as an adult unless the command to protect is given. Should we allow him some time to play with other dogs and meet new people or continue our current strategy? I'm confused....

Protective, meaning what exactly? Meaning he barked at her, was reserved, what? ("Protective" is an often inappropriately-used adjective used to describe a dog who may be, for example, reactive, or resource-guarding, etc., etc. ) So responders need to understand what behavior you're interpreting as protective.

Suggestions will be partly based on that description.


About socializing in general: For me, "socialized" means familiar with and non-reactive to most of what the world will offer them. They're exposed to everything I can possibly expose them to.

And I also expect (and it takes a whole lot of pack structure habits) my dogs to look to me for the appropriate reaction to anyone or anything new, expecting me to indicate how "we" respond to it.

But I don't have PPDs or future PPDs, so maybe others will respond more exactly about socialization for future PPDs.

 Quote: olivia brown

Okay, I need some clarification. Vader is 5 months old and currently, we don't allow strangers to approach him or other dogs to play with him. The logic of course is that he is going to be a ppd and we want him to ignore everyone except us. I'm concerned about him being properly socialized though since I don't want him to become dog aggressive or completely unfriendly towards new people. My mom came to visit last week and he had a very hard time accepting her. He eventually became friendly but at first he was very protective.

I don't train my dogs for PP, but I have experience with Mals who are reactive to strangers entering my house. With this type of dog, I take the approach of training my dog what to do instead of reacting negatively to the visitor. In other words, similar to what Connie said, I'd show him how I want him to react. So, the dog is on a leash when visitors arrive and I use his prior training to create the behavior pattern I want instead of allowing him to create his own behavior pattern. I try to plan this training with single visitors who are "dog people," especially at first. I'll put the dog in a quiet room in a crate or outside in a run if I have many visitors and can't take the time to do that type of training.

However, like I said, I don't train my dogs for PP, and I'd prefer they defer to me rather than take matters into their own hands. Perhaps you want/need something different.

 Quote:

The trainer we are talking to said that he should be friendly and approachable as an adult unless the command to protect is given. Should we allow him some time to play with other dogs and meet new people or continue our current strategy? I'm confused....

What is the end result you are expecting? "PPD" means different things to different people. Personally, if I had a need for a dog specifically trained for PP, I would want what your trainer describes. That is mainly because I have a young child with friends who visit and I would hate for any of them to get hurt (and then be subsequently sued by their parents).

Here's what happened when my mom came...both of the kids were sick so she was coming to deliver their prescriptions that she had picked up for me. She had never met Vader before, but she is a dog person and wasn't afraid of him or anything. Vader was in his crate in our living room. As soon as he heard her (stranger's voice) he began barking very low and deep and his hackles were raised. To me it seemed like he was very uncomfortable with her being there. Eventually he settled down and she approached him through the crate. Once she began speaking to him and allowed him to smell her, he was very friendly and acted like he wanted to play. I never allowed him out of the crate though since she was in a hurry to leave and I had two sick kids to tend to. While I don't mind his reaction necessarily, I don't want it to escalate to the point where he's not friendly with guests at all or can't be trusted.

As far as what we want from him as a PPD, he will be trained to be (by the trainer's system) a level 2 dog. He will bark/growl on command and also be trained to bite if needed. If he is not working though, the goal is for him to be friendly and approachable. Basically he should only protect if I tell him to..he should not judge the situation for himself. I socialize him daily by taking him to new places and exposing him to tons of things, but we never allow other people/pets to approach or interact with him. We have trained him to ignore others and only focus on us. Now I'm wondering if a little bit of stranger handling would be beneficial...I guess I'm just totally confused.

Well, he's young, but you were there and your demeanor should be his cue. Did she burst in without you being present?

Personally, I don't think "stranger handling" is the issue. What I am reading is that he did indeed judge the situation himself without reference to you.

An underlying issue, of course, is that the dog should (and will, if you are working on pack structure, if you are training, etc.) look to you for guidance. But also, as Konnie said, he probably has not had visitor training, in which you train him with consistency and repetition that you welcoming someone into the home means that the person is OK.

Big OTOH, though: I would not allow anyone to approach my crated dog(s). In fact, I don't allow strangers to approach my dogs. If I want my dog to meet a stranger in my house (depending on the dog, this may be soon after the trained doorbell behavior or it may be after the crated dog has had a chance to dial back his excitement), then I take the dog near the person, probably on leash (again depending on the dog) and simply interact with the person with no pressure or attention or looming over the dog. This does mean that some people are not going to have this happen (because I know they cannot/will not comply with my "ignore the dog" request).

All JMO. PPD folks may have much different suggestions.

I think you are right....we need to work with him on having new people come into our home. In all honesty, my mom did not help things since she spoke to him in a high excited voice even though I asked her to ignore him. Most people just don't get that he needs to be ignored until he calms down. We only reward him with affection when he is calm and submissive. I will try to come up with a list of people who can help us with this issue but will understand how to react (or not react) to him. I want him to look at me for guidance so perhaps next time I will distract him with some obedience exercises to keep his focus on me and my leadership...I will also talk to our trainer next week about a clearer direction.

Hi Olivia,

Beautiful pup! I have no PPD experience whatsoever...sorry; but a couple of questions to address situations that arise in all sorts of training.

How often do you have visitors to your house? Up until this visit what was Vader's reaction to visitors?

What was your gut reaction to his response to your mother? Did you tense, get aggravated when she wouldn't ignore him? Lots of times I know I am the fault of my dog's behavior ; he mirrors me in situations that are new to him, not so much now as an adult dog(he's figured out my overreactions) but when he was younger.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

What was your gut reaction to his response to your mother?

It's a known technique to use in-laws in proofing the PPDs in the later stages. One's mother? Good with puppies if she's game Make her wear a hidden sleeve for confidence.

I am not a PPD trainer so I might be a little off here.

eta: hope more experienced folk will chime in.

Edited by Ana Kozlowsky (10/16/2010 09:42 PM)
Edit reason: eta

We rarely have any visitors to our home...I think my mom was the first real stranger that's been in our house since we got Vader. My in-laws came to visit last month and although he's met them before, he reacted in a similiar way when they first arrived. Within less than an hour though, he was acting friendly enough that we allowed him out of his crate and he was totally fine with them..even wanted to play.

My gut reaction to the whole situation with my mom was probably not great to be honest. I was grumpy, sleep deprived (two young sick kids), and I really just wanted her to go home so he would quit barking and so I could try to get the kids to sleep. I ignored his reactions, but I'm sure I was giving off some sort of negative energy. I am grateful that he seems to get over his little protective fit rather quicly, but I'm afraid that as he gets older the behavior may get worse. Although we usually don't have many people over, I want that to be an option and I don't want to have to worry about our dog acting like he's going to eat the visitors :P

 Quote: olivia brown

... I am grateful that he seems to get over his little protective fit rather quicly ....

Perceiving this puppy's reaction to a stranger coming into the home and approaching his crate the way this one did as being "protective" is counterproductive. I know I may sound like I'm harping on semantics, but I'm really not. His reaction was not about being protective.

JMO, of course.