George Tate wrote 10/29/2010 03:11 PM Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) #301079 - 10/29/2010 03:11 PM
George Tate Webboard User Reg: 09-07-2010 Posts: 68 Loc: Houston, TX Offline	Ribbit is a wiry, mix who is got a lot of energy and would like to be the pack leader, IMO. Before I started working with him it was obvious that he had the run of the house, the neighborhood and the walk. When corrected he would tuck his head and his tail and look like you'd zapped him. He is quick to learn most things. He knows sit, stay and come (still working on the "always" part of come). However, I cannot get him to go down. I've tried sitting on the floor in front of him while he is sitting and using food to go "down." He only smells the food and then just looks the other way. If I try to pull his front feet (gently) to the front, he stands up and will not go down. If I press right behind his shoulder blades (someone suggest that), he howls and refuses to go down at all. I was able to get him to lie down on his side once . . . but not since. Help pro favor. "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Einstein Ribbit, Cabbage, Cactus, Molly George "jorge" Tate
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Tiffany Holtfreter wrote 10/29/2010 05:05 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: George Tate ] #301095 - 10/29/2010 05:05 PM
Tiffany Holtfreter Webboard User Reg: 07-31-2010 Posts: 213 Loc: Cumming, GA Offline	Try sitting on the floor with your knee raised creating a tunnel with your leg. Lure him through your leg as you say your command and he will have to lay down and sort of crawl to try and get through . Are you marker training? If so mark him as soon as all four legs are on the ground. Good Luck!
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Sheila Buckley wrote 10/29/2010 05:32 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: George Tate ] #301099 - 10/29/2010 05:32 PM
Sheila Buckley Webboard User Reg: 07-14-2007 Posts: 1243 Loc: Offline	Hi George, How have you been training the behaviors? Are you using marker training? In using food to lure him into a down; you need to make sure it is something he really really loves. Being a little hungry also helps . You can try placing the food directly under his nose and moving your hand straight down to the ground and then sliding your hand along the floor toward you. Think of the letter "L". This worked for me but my dog is big and I'm not sure how it would go with a small dog. The other option is to praise and treat him anytime he lays down on his own. This is slower going because you are not able to set up repetitions of the behavior to practice but he will realize anytime he lays down good things happen and all you will have to do is add the command.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/29/2010 08:21 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: Sheila Buckley ] #301115 - 10/29/2010 08:21 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: sheila buckley How have you been training the behaviors? Are you using marker training? In using food to lure him into a down; you need to make sure it is something he really really loves. Being a little hungry also helps . You can try placing the food directly under his nose and moving your hand straight down to the ground and then sliding your hand along the floor toward you. Think of the letter "L". That is how I train both big and small dogs to down. "If I try to pull his front feet (gently) to the front, he stands up and will not go down. If I press right behind his shoulder blades (someone suggest that), he howls and refuses to go down at all. I was able to get him to lie down on his side once . . . but not since." This stuff can really turn the down into a struggle -- especially with a dog who perceives the position as scary/vulnerable (JMO). I have one of those dogs, and one thing I learned was to teach the down in a room where there were no humans and no other dogs ... and not outside, either.* Not just because of distraction (that too), but I think it removed a whole element of anxiety about being down there. (He too would "kinda" down -- on his side -- until I started making the area much less open, much less likely to have a reaction-trigger pop up .... ) I used a very high-value lure (warm bacon) and I did the sessions before, not after, dinner, just as Sheila says. *I treated outside as a distraction for much later -- part of the proofing process. Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/29/2010 08:24 PM) Edit reason: asterisk
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Melissa Thom wrote 10/29/2010 08:36 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #301116 - 10/29/2010 08:36 PM
Melissa Thom Webboard User Reg: 12-04-2007 Posts: 2781 Loc: Upper Left hand corner, USA Offline	I use a chair or the grooming table. It saves my back and helps with focus on dogs that are wimpy about people towering over them. Simply put the dog on a chair and ask for the various positions via lure. I usually start with the sit, then the down, then the stand... then start working on the various variations of position patterns. 5 minutes at a time. It's easy on the dog, easy on my back, and really quick progress. I've never had it not quickly transfer to the ground either.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/29/2010 08:53 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: Melissa Thom ] #301118 - 10/29/2010 08:53 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	That sounds like a good adaptation. It might not be so good with the kind of dog who is anxious about being in a vulnerable position ... but of course that would be very dog-individual. I often sit on the floor at first, as someone mentioned above.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/29/2010 08:54 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: Melissa Thom ] #301120 - 10/29/2010 08:54 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: Melissa Thom .... 5 minutes at a time. Important reminder!
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Melissa Thom wrote 10/29/2010 08:57 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #301122 - 10/29/2010 08:57 PM
Melissa Thom Webboard User Reg: 12-04-2007 Posts: 2781 Loc: Upper Left hand corner, USA Offline	It also helps if the dog doesn't think his life is ending to have to interact with you. If he is in complete avoidance (ie... stiffening up and not wanting to engage) take a step back and try something you know he can do and enjoy. Then try the down again. This may mean going all the way back to loading the clicker. Edited by Melissa Thom (10/29/2010 09:03 PM) Edit reason: Missing thought... dur
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Connie Sutherland wrote 10/29/2010 09:30 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: Melissa Thom ] #301127 - 10/29/2010 09:30 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: melissa thom It also helps if the dog doesn't think his life is ending to have to interact with you. If he is in complete avoidance (ie... stiffening up and not wanting to engage) take a step back and try something you know he can do and enjoy. Then try the down again. This may mean going all the way back to loading the clicker. Great point, and (at least with some dogs) the down might be the one among the basic ob commands that will trigger that (I mean, if anything will). Stiffening up and pretty much panicking was the reaction from the dog who taught me to take it indoors, remove all potential triggers, and increase the reward value. He's great now. Now it's one of his offerings if another dog is being marker-trained and he would prefer that he was the one doing his stuff for rewards. "Hey! Hey! Me, over here! See this down?!"
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steve strom wrote 10/30/2010 03:15 PM Re: Teach "down" to small dog (12 pound terrierish) [Re: George Tate ] #301183 - 10/30/2010 03:15 PM
steve strom Webboard User Reg: 03-17-2006 Posts: 4203 Loc: Offline	Hey George, try taking a whole hotdog and see if he'll keep nibbling at it while you move him around, luring him around in a big circle and some figure 8's. If you can keep him following that, lure him into a couple sits without saying anything. As soon as his butt hits the floor, start moving again. Don't ask him to hold the position. When you can do that, try luring him into a down while moving. No pause, right back to moving. No commands, don't say anything. Just keep it moving. If you can lure him into positions like that, you can add duration later. Hopefully the moving will make it fun and remove the stress of what was done before.
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