I bought the Dogtra 1900 NCP almost a month ago. I have been doing collar conditioning, and playing with it myself to see how it works since then. I had company from out of town for 2 weeks, dog got sick, husband got sick, you can see how it has gone. SO the collar has not actually been used.

I looked at the collars originally to stop him from eating stones. This even entailed a trip to the vet to have him x-rayed. I have come to realize after reading Ed's stuff that this is going to be a great trainig tool in a lot of situations.

Tanka is a 13 month old rottweiler. We have been through 4 classes, and he has his CGC, but he still needs a lot of work like any dog that age, and I need a lot of learning. On advice from another section of this forum, we are working on some issues, and I have the remote collar training dvd, the basic obedience, and the pack structure.

I have just gotten to the point where I can sit down, and watch the obedience and start going through that program. I have watched the collar dvd twice.

After more reading through Ed's articles, I want to do more marker trianing with Tanka before I introduce the collar as an adjunct to training. BUT, we need to stop the eating of stones right now. Before he ends up with surgery. We are trying to manage it right now, and it is better, but we have a long gravel drive, and it is super tough to keep him from getting any.

Are we going to create any kind of problem using the collar to train, if his first and only(for awhile) expereince with the collar, is avoidance training?

Have you considered a cage muzzle to prevent the issue on the gravel drive?

It was suggested by the vet's assistant, but she pretty clearly thought the ecollar was terrible.

But we do not want him to not be able to play with anything when he is outside, not be able to pick up a toy even. I would really like him to learn that eating gravel anywhere is not allowed. That way when he goes to the kennel, or we go anywhere there is gravel, it will not be an issue.

Julie, I have an e-collar and love it, so I'm not "anti-ecollar" training by any means, and I understand your desire for your dog to be able to play with a toy, etc... while outside.

Have you trained "leave it" or "off"? Are you familiar with marker training?

My preferance is always for positive enforcement when possible.

Edited to add that I don't consider ecollar training negative in the right application and situation.

i didn't mean to imply you all would be against it. either. This would be a strange forum to haunt if you didn't like ecollars. Haha

I have worked on leave it. I still work on leave it. it is one of the things that I have not been able to get him to do consistently. But on the other hand, he is young and is not going to be 100%. He is always better at things inside, and if I catch him before something goes in his mouth inside, most of the time, he obeys it. He definitely knows what it means. Outside has been a different story, I think most of the time he knows he is farther away, and figures he can get it in his mouth, and then the chase game will happen if I pursue him. If I don't,he has gotten to keep it. Now he is wearing a drag line most of the time, that is already better.

Leave it has been a complete failure outside. That does not mean that I have given up on it. It is extremely important. The stones are the reason I bought the collar in the first place. Learning to avoid gravel could save his life. Learning to drop other things I say to drop could save his life too.

He seemed to come pre-programed to run with things he picked up. The very first time he found horse manure at 8 weeks, he gave us a look and ran with it. he had never seen it, or knew we wouldn't want him to have it. The chase game, something else I have been at a loss to un-program. Inside, if we have to, we corner him and pry it out of his mouth. Outside, it can be one of the most frustrating things you can do. There is a lot of places to run, and he knows what areas to avoid.

These are the things I am still trying to teach of course. He has to learn them. He already knows what I want, but he knows he does not have to obey. These are also areas I hope the collar can help.

I have spent a good while on collar conditioning, and I hope for him not to learn where the corrections are coming form. He has a lot of collars, and he gets a host of them put on and off in a day. I know we are not ready to jump right to its use in regular trianing.. I want to go all through Ed's obedience program before i even think about it. And we are working on some pack structure stuff too.

I don't wan to jump into using it in training too soon, but I don't want to wait a couple more months before we teach him not to eat gravel. He knows he is not to do it, he grabs it and runs away. I think too, it is completely unfair to stim a dog who does not have any idea he is doing wrong.

Tanka has learned very well if he wants someting outside, grab it and run, and keep running until someone comes up with something better, and that can be TOUGH. I read book after book looking for help, but all said do no let your dog learn the chase game, up to now I have not found one with any helpful advice on what to do if he already knew it.

I think I know what marker trianing is, if it is similar to a clicker, except that I use the word yes. I use it in my regular work, to let him know he did good and there may be a treat coming,but to really know it, I probably don't. And I haven't expanded on it. I am working on putting another order together from Leerburg, and I think that will be my next video. Without having watched either, I would say that it would be a good one to watch in conjunction with the obedience. Someone else suggested it also.

Falcon was never off lead prior to learning 'leave it' and 'come'. If your dog is off lead and has the opportunity to run away from you after a command - you might need to go back to square one.

Yes, Marker Training is similar to clicker training. We taught "leave it" in the house by dropping a treat on the floor but having my foot close enough to cover the treat if he went for it. "Leave it" command - cover with foot if needed - slowly remove foot - cover if necessary - then quickly reward if the treat on the floor is left alone. (hope this was clear). This was then trained outside on the asphalt drive - and then on the gravel road.

 Quote: julie sloan

Leave it has been a complete failure outside. That does not mean that I have given up on it. It is extremely important. The stones are the reason I bought the collar in the first place. Learning to avoid gravel could save his life. Learning to drop other things I say to drop could save his life too.

I would keep this dog on a leash, with the leash handle in my hand or tethered to me until you have these issues squared away. Every time he gets something you don't want him to have and then runs with it, the behavior is reinforced.

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He seemed to come pre-programed to run with things he picked up. The very first time he found horse manure at 8 weeks, he gave us a look and ran with it. he had never seen it, or knew we wouldn't want him to have it.

This is a behavior they can learn pretty easily from their littermates. They find something that is high value to them, and they expect it might be high value to you too, so they run with it. The key is to keep the pup on a leash so this does not happen once he comes home from the breeder's/wherever to your house.

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The chase game, something else I have been at a loss to un-program. Inside, if we have to, we corner him and pry it out of his mouth. Outside, it can be one of the most frustrating things you can do. There is a lot of places to run, and he knows what areas to avoid.

By chasing and cornering him inside and chasing him and not catching him outside, you are only reinforcing that things he picks up must be kept and run away with. You need to train an incompatible behavior.

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These are the things I am still trying to teach of course. He has to learn them. He already knows what I want, but he knows he does not have to obey. These are also areas I hope the collar can help.

Based on what you've said above, you are also inadvertently reinforcing the very behaviors you don't want.

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Tanka has learned very well if he wants someting outside, grab it and run, and keep running until someone comes up with something better, and that can be TOUGH. I read book after book looking for help, but all said do no let your dog learn the chase game, up to now I have not found one with any helpful advice on what to do if he already knew it.

My advice: keep him on a leash while you teach an incompatible behavior to a level where he will be reliable off leash ("leave it," and "come").

I use ecollars frequently in my training. I teach the dog the desired behaviors using marker training. I also manipulate the dog's environment (crate, leash, gates, etc) so the dog can't learn behaviors I don't want. And, when I'm ready to use the ecollar, the dog is on a leash so I can guide him into the correct behavior, mark and reward (the reward is food/toy plus release from low-level collar stim). This ensures that the dog knows exactly what behavior to perform in order to avoid the stim of the ecollar. Without going through all those steps, I think an ecollar has the potential to do more damage than good in your situation.

Just wanted to add this too...
I know most folks aren't fans of flexi-leashes, but I use a flexi all the time on our property or hiking with puppies. That way, I can give them some freedom to run around, but still be able to reel them in or prevent unwanted behaviors if needed.

It might not work well for this dog, because of his age/size, but it's something to consider.

I would NOT, however, use a flexi for leash walking in areas where absolute, close control is necessary, such as in town.

JMO.

That is good advice, and I am truly listening. Tanka is dragging a leash now almost all the time. In all honesty, we have to do what we are capable of doing. And lying and saying I am going ot be walking the dog on a leash all the time is not going to help me get good advice if I am not truly doing that. It's like lying to your doctor and hoping to get better. We gave him too much freedom at once, and now we are backtracking. I can now catch him if he attempts to run without having the leash in my hand at all times.

I have heard varying opinions on flex-leads, and I am not a fan, I have to say. I do have the long line and am more willing to stay fussing with the ends than to use the flexi, although I know some people relly love them. I never want my finger in a flexi.JMO

I am a little confused after doing lots of reading within the site, and watching the video, and then reading through some of the ecollar stuff on the forums. ALthough Ed does not advise using the ecollar before a dog knows what is expected, he does use it to actually help train the behaviors. His opinion I think is it being a more humane alternative than a million prong collar corrections, which has been a lot of trying to have Tanka at class. There is only so much cheese and hotdog can do in that situation. He loses interest eventually. And I am a positive trainig person as much as possible. I hate doing all the collar corrections all the time that seemed to do little to nothing to change the behaviors.

ANd although I have been unable to find it today, and wanted to reread or rewatch it, I remember reading/watching a part on ecollars about avoidance trainig, such as staying out of trash or away from the leerburg horses, where the behavior is not trianed, but the dog is stimmed for doing it. An avoidance behavior. I want Tanka to AVOID stones, always, no matter whre we are. I don't want to have to be by his side telling him do not pick that up. Although all the training advice seems spot on, I am getting confused as to what the collar can be used for if I am not to use it to teach him to avoid stones, always.

tanka's grasp of leave it is that I am able and have been for along time, to be able to lay a high value item on his paws while he is in a down, or sit, and he will leave it until I allow him to have it even if I walk a ways away. I will start using it outside more often, then in the drive.

I agree with Konnie's advice and want to add, that if he is still able to run from you with a drag line, but you are able to catch him, he is still able to run from you. Your honesty is refreshing however, and you are right, the only way to get sound advice. Since you are outside with him, I'd recommend simply holding on to the leash so you have immediate access to him and can PREVENT him from picking up what he shouldn't have, instead of chasing him down to get the leash to correct. This will allow you to train the correct behavior and cut down on those repetitive corrections.

Some folks would tell you to go ahead and use the ecollar to correct him for touching a stone, and the argument could be made that it is life threatening (eating rocks), etc... However, what I'm hearing from you is that you've given the dog too much freedeom to soon, haven't yet trained the leave it with distractions, etc... and now want to go to a tool using avoidance to quickly correct something which wasn't trained correctly. I'm not a fan of that. Like Konnie, I use the ecollar to give me another tool after I've trained under distractions, to allow me security off lead on our property, etc...

I'd start by holding on to the leash and prevent and reward first. Train the behavior you want. It does take more time and effort, I'll grant you that, but it honestly sets you and your dog up for more success with other training - it all builds. JMHO.