Sorry, couldn't resist the conehead reference, I know some of you are probably old enough to know what I'm talking about.

Our puppy Josh is 14 weeks tomorrow. We haven't weighed him yet for 14 weeks but know he's 25lbs or a little more. He's eating 2 cups of raw and 2 cups of holistic kibble per day (3 meals total), and he's starting to look skinny again (when he spurts up in height his pelvic bones start to show in back). We haven't raised animals this young before so we aren't used to the amounts he's eating. Is 4 cups a day normal for a puppy? He's active, his poops are good, he's starting tracking training and doing pretty good so nothing wrong there.

His dad was 80-85lb, mom was 67 so we're expecting him to be big, can't imagine how much food he'll eat as an adult.

In my experience their eating really slows down when their growth is finished.

Also, many people advise against mixing raw and kibble. It is never a good idea in the same meal, and often can cause problems when fed even hours apart.
This is due to the different digestion rates. The kibble takes much longer to digest causing much longer digestion times than normal for the raw. This can expose the dog to nasty bacteria.

 Quote: judy cole

Sorry, couldn't resist the conehead reference, I know some of you are probably old enough to know what I'm talking about.

Our puppy Josh is 14 weeks tomorrow. We haven't weighed him yet for 14 weeks but know he's 25lbs or a little more. He's eating 2 cups of raw and 2 cups of holistic kibble per day (3 meals total), and he's starting to look skinny again (when he spurts up in height his pelvic bones start to show in back). We haven't raised animals this young before so we aren't used to the amounts he's eating. Is 4 cups a day normal for a puppy? He's active, his poops are good, he's starting tracking training and doing pretty good so nothing wrong there.

His dad was 80-85lb, mom was 67 so we're expecting him to be big, can't imagine how much food he'll eat as an adult.

Besides the previous reply, we also can't really gauge cups. Some commercial foods have way more starch in them and require the dog to be fed more, so "cups" of unnamed kibble isn't meaningful, and we also don't know what "raw" means in this context. RMBs? Or a cup of ground beef?

If it's boneless muscle meat, there's a calcium problem, with much too much boneless meat in the diet. If it's RMBs, how does that translate to "cups"?

And I strongly (as strongly as I can) urge that you not mix raw and kibble.

If you would like full explanation of why it's dangerous, I can dig up a couple of links.

PS Got a link to Josh's picture? We can put a cute lil puppy face to a name. :-)

Connie, I have read many explanations of why dry grain based kibble is slower to digest, hence feeding it with raw meat causes the digestion of raw to slow down in a dangerous manner - but do you have any links to information or studies on digestion rates of grain-free kibble?
Why would soaked grain free, like Orijen, take longer to digest than raw meat? If soaked in water first, would it not be similar to dehydrated food like Honest Kitchen?

I don't think this is off topic, as the OP is mixing kibble and raw - although I'm not sure if "holistic" kibble means a grain free product . . .

 Quote: cindy shepard

.... do you have any links to information or studies on digestion rates of grain-free kibble?
Why would soaked grain free, like Orijen, take longer to digest than raw meat? If soaked in water first, would it not be similar to dehydrated food like Honest Kitchen?

I don't think this is off topic, as the OP is mixing kibble and raw - although I'm not sure if "holistic" kibble means a grain free product . . .

I don't know how long soaked kibble takes to digest. I'll find out.

However, warning : Many high-end kibbles use citric acid as a natural preservative, and one of the risk factors identified in a Purdue study in 2003 (I think it was 2003; I'll find that too) was soaked kibble that contains citric acid.

I recall that a very significant percentage (about a third) of the study's GDV events (gastric dilatation and volvulus) involved kibble with fat in the 1st four ingredients or soaked kibble containing citric acid.

eta
The kibbling very-high-temp bake (or steam) and extrude process (with or without grain, and remember that all kibble has to contain some kind of starchy food, maybe potato, to enable that process) isn't similar to the low-temp dehydration of flaked raw foods, but I understand that you're asking whether soaking brings kibble's digestion time closer to that of fresh or canned (or rehydrated THK, etc.).



Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/15/2010 07:46 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thank's so much for your help

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I recall that a very significant percentage (about a third) of the study's GDV events (gastric dilatation and volvulus) involved kibble with fat in the 1st four ingredients or soaked kibble containing citric acid.

One of the vets I work with warns people of this - never to feed your dog soaked kibble (especially if they are high risk for GDV), and not to feed them from a raised platform.

 Quote: phaedra rieff

 Quote: connie sutherland

I recall that a very significant percentage (about a third) of the study's GDV events (gastric dilatation and volvulus) involved kibble with fat in the 1st four ingredients or soaked kibble containing citric acid.

One of the vets I work with warns people of this - never to feed your dog soaked kibble (especially if they are high risk for GDV), and not to feed them from a raised platform.

The raised food dish was indeed another common factor in the GDV events.

OK, I looked up Orijen's ingredients and they do indeed include the citric acid that is strongly warned against soaking.

I found the study (2002, not 2003):

QUOTE: ... dry foods containing citric acid that were moistened prior to feeding significantly increased GDV risk (OR, 4.19; CI, 1.80, 9.73). Approximately 30 and 33% of all cases of GDV in this study could be attributed to consumption of dry foods containing fat among their first four ingredients or citric acid, respectively. END QUOTE from "Diet-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs of high-risk breeds: A nested case-control study" from Purdue.

I have it in a Word doc from which I pasted that; still looking for it online. (Full desk today. )

Haven't looked yet for digestion rate of soaked kibble, which will be interesting to know even if actually doing it is a bad idea.



eta
I should add that all the research and articles I have looked up, read, and posted here have involved high-risk breeds. I don't usually point that out, I guess because so many of us have those very breeds. Also, of course, bloat is not confined to the high-risk breeds, anyway.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (11/16/2010 11:10 AM)
Edit reason: eta

If you feed dry kibble and the dog drinks water what happens to the kibble inside the dog - it gets soaked. What's the difference then?