My two bitches (Abby, 7yo companion, and Lucy, just turning 1yo working dog) have decided to go to war. With each other. This is after two months of peace and cooperation. I know, I know. I'm not here for a lecture on why female/female pairings usually don't work. I made my bed, now I'm sleeping in it. They have been kept separated for the last two days.

My question is not how to handle it, actually. I've got a plan of action. My question is about muzzles. I'd like to muzzle both of them when they are around each other for short periods of time, strongly correcting any aggressive moves on either of their parts (they've also been demoted to Cadet Abby and Cadet Lucy at my own personal version of Doggy Boot Camp; basically very structured lives with strict obedience and NO SLACK). I'm planning on buying the nylon "Husher" type muzzles.

QUESTION: Is there any compelling reason that I should consider basket muzzles or any other type of muzzle instead?

An e-collar is out of the question budget-wise for now. If my plan fails, I may seek out that kind of help if it seems like my best option (comments from Lou on this are welcome). I'm also prepared to practice careful traffic control and muzzling for the long run.

So, about the muzzles, which kind do you recommend and why?

You will never be able to trust them again, no matter what you do. I like the wire muzzles better because of air flow and drinking ability.

There are nylon muzzles, and then an elastic type that is called the husher... DO NOT buy the elastic type as they can still bite. Plus, if it is sized properly it makes breathing difficult.

I know you don't want to hear this, but I don't think you will fix this no matter what. Once two bitches fight, it never seems to cool off.

I don't think you will want to consider the e-collar for this. I wouldn't use it in this circumstance because the dog needs to KNOW the correction is coming from YOU.

I have to disagree with the dog not knowing the correction is coming from the handler with the e-colllar. I have a female agressive female that has gotten the e-collar this past wk. It is set on level 7, any charging of the kennel, etc she gets told No very sternly and corrected. She knows it comes from me. She turns and looks at me then hangs her head. So I do think as long as you connect the correction with a verbal connection at the same time, the dog knows.

Ok, sorry, I didn't mean they all DON'T know where it is coming from, but you do need to make SURE the dog does know it is coming from you and not the other dog.

I have three dogs and I would not use the e-collar for dog aggression... just my personal opinion. I DO use the e-collar for other things and have no beef with it what so ever. But I think people tend to think it is the cure all when all it is really is another tool. Used improperly it won't cure anything.

I use the ecollar as well, but not for my dogs fighting........ I have 4 bitches and none of them can be trusted together unless handled carefully. If you give the ecollar correction before a fight or even posturing has started and the dog is already aware and used to the collar it should work. once they have engaged in any type of contact (with my particular dogs) it becomes a full blown fight. I do take walks with the females in pairs but release the dominant bitch to run free first then make the subordinate dog do a little heeling and then release her. I give a verbal warning to both.......they know that fighting will get them double trouble cause when they are done with each other then they both have to deal with me!!!

I think the biggest mistake people make is by correcting the dominant dog and protecting the subordinate. In a dogs perspective this just stretches the conflict out and makes the lines of alpha and omega fuzzy. I always correct both but give the alpha her status at all times.....she is petted, fed and let outside first. The pecking order is clear to the dogs and I am the boss of the whole group so it makes for much less stress.

Thanks for the advice. Are there any particular brands/types of basket muzzle that are better than others? Or is a basket muzzle a basket muzzle a basket muzzle? My main concern now is that I don't want those muzzles coming off unless I take them off. Period.

These two are not going to be around each other without them for the time being.

On a behavioral note, I think what's going on is that the younger one is growing up. Nothing about the older one or the way she is treated has changed. This is definitely a change I'm seeing in the younger one. She's been the subordinate up until this point. She just went through her first heat, and I'm thinking she may still have some hormonal fluxuations going on. Am I off base?

Lisa,
A dog can injure another dog while in a muzzle, just from the impact. We did muzzle work on one of the patrol dogs recently, and without the bite suit I would have been very bruised. On an unpadded dog, scratches and brusing could be pronounced during a dog fight with two muzzled canines.
Just my two cents worth....

And Deanna.....what a lovely new avatar picture!! ( goooooooo...Czech dogs! )

Lisa, Since the night my male GSD and female Akita decided to fight I'vekept them apart.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
This has been harder on my wife then on the two dogs. She misses their company in the evening.

I'm sure that I can allow them to be together and most likely not have a problem. Then maybe not!!!

"BUT!! WHAT CAN HAPPEN IF THEY DECIDE TO TRY EACH OTHER AGAIN, TOO MUCH DAMAGE CAN BE DONE IN A MATTER OF SECONDS"

If my male would not have outed, the bite to my arm would have been much worst. I'm glad the GSD bite me and not the Akita, she's hard headed and doesn't always listen.

Whatever you decide be extra careful, muzzle or not you can get hurt.

Good luck in trying to work this problem out. I hope you succede in this endeavor.

I don't use the ecollar during a dog fight itself. That can only escalate the situation. The one female broke her crate and attacked the other female. Hubby thru one into the pool while he got ahold of the other one. Ecollar went on next day. We first back tied her and brought 2 diff. females out. Any posturing she got corrected. By the end of that session she was doing more avoidance of the other 2 which is fine since I don't think she'll ever be broke of it. Few days later, other dogs were already put up, just watched her body language. Soon as she started to slink down (her sign to charge) she got corrected. Today did the same thing, she went out and around to avoid going to the other dog. So we're making progress.

Lisa Swanston wrote: An e-collar is out of the question budget-wise for now. If my plan fails, I may seek out that kind of help if it seems like my best option (comments from Lou on this are welcome). I'm also prepared to practice careful traffic control and muzzling for the long run.

LC: For the moment, management is your best tool. Don’t allow the dogs the opportunity to get together unless you’re right there.

Deanna Thompson wrote: I don't think you will want to consider the e-collar for this. I wouldn't use it in this circumstance because the dog needs to KNOW the correction is coming from YOU.

LC: I disagree with this for solving this problem. The protocol I wrote on this is just some behavior modification. You want the dog to think that her action, of “the stare” brings discomfort. You don’t want to be associated with this in any way. Look at

http://www.leerburg.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=000028#000001

Angela Washburn wrote: I have to disagree with the dog not knowing the correction is coming from the handler with the e-colllar. I have a female agressive female that has gotten the e-collar this past wk. It is set on level 7, any charging of the kennel, etc she gets told No very sternly and corrected. She knows it comes from me. She turns and looks at me then hangs her head. So I do think as long as you connect the correction with a verbal connection at the same time, the dog knows.

LC: This is correct but I think it’s better of the dog does the work of avoiding the confrontation with the other dog. If you have to be present to say, “No.” that’s not the case.

Deanna Thompson wrote: I have three dogs and I would not use the e-collar for dog aggression... just my personal opinion. I DO use the e-collar for other things and have no beef with it what so ever. But I think people tend to think it is the cure all when all it is really is another tool. Used improperly it won't cure anything.

LC: I don’t think it’s the “cure all” but it sure comes close. LOL.

Cindy Easton Rhodes wrote: I think the biggest mistake people make is by correcting the dominant dog and protecting the subordinate.

LC: Neither occurs with my protocol. The dog showing the aggression makes a connection between her action and the discomfort that a stimulation brings. It has nothing to do with the other dog and nothing to do with the handler.

Lisa Swanston wrote: On a behavioral note, I think what's going on is that the younger one is growing up. Nothing about the older one or the way she is treated has changed. This is definitely a change I'm seeing in the younger one. She's been the subordinate up until this point. She just went through her first heat, and I'm thinking she may still have some hormonal fluxuations going on. Am I off base?

LC: You could be right and you could be wrong. With this, and other problems, lots of people make a big deal about trying to figure out the “why” of it. I don’t. Often the fix is based on the feeling of the “why.” If you’ve guessed wrong, the fix will be wrong. I just address the problem.