Long story short....Black ops veteran that was also a SAR handler at 9/11 is disabled and wants a service dog.
been waiting for years.
He is too far from me to go in to my program for owner training.
Has a lady who I had my doubts about offer to "train" one for him. I had my reservations about her from the beginning but kept my mouth shut......
So today she posts that she has found the dog....here you go: http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/17572541

I politely express concern about the phrase

"only experienced German Shepherd, Alpha adults, with experience in rehabilitation,will be considered"

I point out that this would normally discount a dog as a candidate for a Service Dog.
She goes off on me saying that I obviously know nothing about GSDs.....
I respond politely back and precede to ask her for her reasoning for even thinking of this dog as suitable.....
She actually said that the dog's issues would not be a problem as no one will approach the dog while it is working because it is a German Shepherd.
I continue to express polite factual concern, and she gets nasty, then deletes her comments and then her whole facebook account!!
She then ditches the veteran...so now he is all upset, I know I did the right thing standing up to her, but I'm still upset.
It's this kind of CRAP that will cause over regulation of service dogs, making it impossible to owner train, thus driving up the costs and restricting the number that are out there.
Here I am jumping through legal hoops backwards to try to get my program off the ground...and she just goes out to train someone a dominant dog in serious need of rehabilitation...as a SERVICE DOG!!!!!
That is the reason I took the stand...If we don't regulate ourselves and insist on industry standards it will be bad for everyone...but I'm still upset!!!!!
Sry...just needed to vent....

Good for you Willie, because in reality, if you don't take a stand who will.

And one person, especially with your passion and conviction, can make all the difference

**Pat on the back**

Good grief, stable loving dogs are what people need. No one needs a dog that bites for post traumatic stress! Plus, the entire program will collapse if dogs chosen at the start are monsters. The first ones need to be ambassadors.

Good for you.
Can anyone just call themselves a "trainer"?

The dog may or may not be a good candidate. Unless there is more to the story that was provided in the link, I didn't read where the dog had a bite history. Needing an "alpha", in my experience, can just mean the dog needs a firm hand. Many good, stable GSD's need a firm hand. Don't know any of the folks involved and I've also learned not to evaluate the potential of a dog from the written word.

DFrost

SO SO SO glad you intervened Willie! I second that pat on the back. What the hell?! That could have been a disaster....just think of what a public-access nightmare that poor guy would have had on his hands.

 Quote:

The dog may or may not be a good candidate. Unless there is more to the story that was provided in the link, I didn't read where the dog had a bite history. Needing an "alpha", in my experience, can just mean the dog needs a firm hand. Many good, stable GSD's need a firm hand. Don't know any of the folks involved and I've also learned not to evaluate the potential of a dog from the written word.

While this is true in general, for service work the dog really needs to be working for YOU, and you shouldn't have to put all of your energy into managing the dog. It kind of defeats the purpose. A challenging dog is not a good place to start, IMHO.

It's too bad that there isn't a network of experienced service dog trainers/evaluators out there to help support owner-trained service dogs. I wonder if that's something that could be set up, and how that would work?

Thanks guys...I was sooo mad!!!

Niomi: thanks the "pat" helped!!!

Betty this lady was in no way associated with my program at all.....thank goodness.
Yes anyone can call themselves a trainer..just like with sport or PPD, the buyer has to beware. There are several national organizations that service dog schools can join and people are advised to go with trainers affiliated with those organizations....or at least adhering to their standards.

David, you are totally right, you can't go on just the written word, and that is why I questioned her...(that is when she got nasty....I asked..what about this dog is so great that you are willing to overlook the fact that is is dominant and needs rehabilitation.....no answer other than bluster and B$)
She was going to take this dog un-tested and un-evaluated and start training it.
That said, I personally would not ever take on a dog with dominant tenancies as a candidate for a guy with mobility issues combined with severe TBI and PTSD.

 Quote:

t's too bad that there isn't a network of experienced service dog trainers/evaluators out there to help support owner-trained service dogs. I wonder if that's something that could be set up, and how that would work?

This is the vision of my program when it goes to the national level....regional offices with trainers that run classes on SD training and have a leveled system of certifications and testing for the owners to complete.
Evals done to ADI standards and such.

I feel better now...but boy she had me irritated....

I think David has it exactly right. This dog may or may not be a good candidate for the job. The trainer is obviously not the right candidate though. Without evaluating the dog there would be no way to tell.

I have seen and been a part of a lot of really great rottweilers that were on the verge of being PTS by people who thought the dog needed an alpha presence and proceeded to try to dominate the dog. It made them look like bad dog, but it was in fact bad owners. The person getting rid of this dog may believe that it also needs a firm hand when it actually just needs some stability.

I don't have any experience with PTSD or what the person may need in a dog, but I am sure they don't need more stress to deal with. So just the fact that this dog has to be evaluated and rehabilitated would make me think it wouldn't be the right dog for an owner trained SD.

It’s odd that a GSD rescue would place a “dominant” dog knowing it would be trained as a SD. I went to the rescues website, Dakota is not listed as a dog for adoption, or recently adopted.

Is this a recent ad?.

Tammy, (I love your input on my posts)
They have 2 dogs listed on the website and 12 on their petfinder site....they might just not keeping up with the site.
I am NOT here to bash the rescue. I want that clear.

My issue is with this woman.
That said, It is odd that they would consider it, however many many people out there have no idea about temperaments and drives, and if she called in and said that dominance wasn't a problem then they most likely believed her.
Or she could have told them nothing.
The dog is in WI she is in MI or ME.

I have a problem with dogs that are dominant being service dogs.
The very nature of where the service dog has to be and what it has to do can make dogs have dominance issues.
It is impossible to institute basic NILF (or other traditional pack structure methods) and have the dog do it's job.
It is always in a position of preference even over family members.
It has to lie at it's master's feet and go everywhere the master goes.
It often sleeps out of necessity in the masters room or even bed. (I need Eddie to help me to get to the bathroom at night for instance)
In the case of a PTSD dog part of it's duty can be to sleep between a sufferer and their spouse. Often PTSD suffers will have a night terror and wake up beating the person sleeping next to them. The dog is on duty to wake up the person before it gets to that point, and if it gets there fast, then the dog is trained to take or dodge the blows and wake the handler (Much as an autism service dog is trained to take and stop a autistic tantrum)
All of these things can add up to big trouble with a dog that has social dominance issues.
That I why I will fail a dog for our program if they have TRUE dominance issues......all which remains to be seen in this case.

My problem was with this lady's aggressive and defensive response to my polite questions regarding her reasoning about this dog.
The total lack of information and refusal to answer basic polite questions was my beef.

Willie

For right now, only experienced German Shepherd, Alpha adults, with experience in rehabilitation, would be considered. Will update more at a later time. Thanks

I see rehabilatation as many things. This dog is 1.5,good chance no training. It sounds like "For right now" means they see potential.

I work with SD's and have placed GSD rescues, I understand what you are saying, I would not select,nor place, a dominant dog for this work, I can't imagine who would.