I am looking for some advice so that I know the proper DVD to get in order to properly train.

I have two puppies, almost 8 months old. They were abandoned, they are brother and sister and ended up in front of my house, in the wilderness, so to speak, at midnight, one night when they were about 3-4 months old.

I was unprepared for this so for the first couple of weeks, I did everything absolutely wrong. I then found this site after taking them to an off leash park to "socialize" and the girl puppy was scared of every dog that was bigger than her.

Since that time, I have read a lot on this site, ordered DVDs and tried to follow all the advice written.

I got them crates, keep the crates in separate rooms, went through the screaming banshee phase, (which, the girl dog still likes to do no matter that I ignore her EVERY single time...gah!), take them out to the bathroom separately, walk them separately, feed them separately, (in their crates), and trained and exercised them separately. It was twice the work in some ways but in others, I think it spared me a lot of time.

At night, when I was home, I would have one dog on leash, tethered to me and one dog, on leash, about 10 feet away from me. (My place is small.) I would switch this up...meaning, it would not always be the same dog tethered to me.

I would give them supervised play time together in the house and discovered that the girl dog appears to be very toy aggressive...or maybe I have this backwards. What happens is that she wants to have ALL of the toys. I put one out for her and one out for the boy. I do the job of picking them up and taking them away to let the dogs know that these are MY toys, and I will determine who plays with them but it takes a mere second for her to steal the toy from the boy dog. What will happen is that the boy wants the toy back OR he wants to play with what she's playing with, not what I gave him.

I screwed up here and fully realize this. One night, they were having their play time together, in my sight, while I was on the computer. (Dumb...it took my attention away.) I saw the girl showing teeth and then, before I could react, she snapped at the boy. Having watched some DVDs, I'm aware that a dog will not "miss" so took this as her warning the boy. I immediately took the toys away and put them both in their crates.

I was also getting to the point of taking them both out to run off the energy together. This went very, very well for about a month or so. The recall was good, the treats were gold to them, the clicker got their attention as a signal to come to me, sit, get a reward. So I let them off leash together. They chased each other and played and rough housed like I know puppies to do. The boy dog has a much higher prey drive than the girl...heck, I'm not sure the girl has a prey drive. Nothing interests her except other people.

Then, one day, as they were running around like lunatics and playing, it got serious. A fight broke out. This wasn't puppy playing anymore, it was a fight. THANKFULLY I had read this site about how to break up a dog fight so I ran over to the girl, wrapped her leash around her hind legs and pulled her away. The boy tried to come after her but I told him, "NO!" and put her on the leash. As soon as she was on the leash, he didn't have much interest in going after her.

I didn't let them off leash together for awhile. Then I decided to try it again, just to see if it was a fluke thing or what. Well, duh, it happened again. The boy likes to chase her down, grab her by the throat and pin her to the ground. She does not like this one little bit and that is when the fight starts. (I did not see how it happened the first time.) So now I cannot let them off leash together to burn off the energy.

I cannot let them sit together in the house and chew on a toy or antler or bone because there is aggression and snapping and growling and like I said, one time a fight.

I asked people on another forum what their thoughts were as one person claimed to be a very successful dog trainer and his idea was that I was being too militant, that I should just let the dogs "be" and "work it out" amongst themselves.

I was absolutely not comfortable with this but thought, I'm not a trainer, he is...maybe he's right?

That was stupid. When I let them be, another fight broke out in the house over toys/bones and another fight broke out while running around off leash.

Forget this. This guy is an idiot, I'm not listening to him anymore, time to go back to leerburg.

I am sure I've done everything too early. I'm sure I'm supposed to keep them separate longer. Maybe I'll never get to let them play together like I see in other multi dog households.

They don't attack me, the girl does not try to dominate me, she lifts her paw at me but doesn't try to put it on me. She listens to every command and does it right away. It's rare I have to do anything for her not listening.

The boy does, at times, try to jump up to me, put his paws on me, still learning that nipping/play biting is UNacceptable, (although LIGHT years better about it than he used to be..we're getting there) and has learned that the cats are NOT toys to be chased...at least as long as I'm in the room. I still, however, do not trust him alone with the cats as I think he would chase them if he thought I wasn't looking. Off leash he comes every single time I call, he sits promptly and seems extremely eager to please...or at least get his reward. But his prey drive seems high, plus he's a puppy and has a ton of energy...

I read the online book about dealing with dominant dogs and the first thing Ed says is that this is typically not an issue with puppies at 8 months, (which mine are), that those are high prey drive characteristics and that the dogs are getting the short end of the stick by over correction....I get all that...what I don't get is that I AM seeing aggression issues with these two, already. Resulted in fights. Not puppy fights. FIGHTS.

The girl seems aggressive in the home with toys/bones and the boy seems aggressive outside.

I have NO idea what DVD to get if the dominance thing doesn't typically show up until later. How do I correct this aggression resulting in fighting? What DVD am I looking for? Is the only way to fix this by muzzle? Is this all too early because they are puppies still?

I'm trying to do everything right, I know I screw up here and there and I come back here and read more and correct myself...but this issue absolutely must be fixed. Is this something I can work on now so that maybe, one day, when they are older, they can actually play together or is this something that I will have to deal with and forever keep them separate?

I'm sorry this is so long...I'm trying to be as informative as possible.

Last thing: No aggression towards other people or other dogs. Just each other in these two cases; toys/bones and off leash running around. I have even tried taking them on a walk together, on leash, and they did well but that's not something I will normally do if I'm not supposed to at this point.

Oh and the DVDs I have are the Establish Pack Structure, Your Puppy 8 Weeks to 8 Months and Basic Obedience. I learned a lot from those DVDs...I should probably watch them again as I'm sure I messed up somewhere but would also like to know if I should get the Dominant/Aggressive dog DVD even though they are just about 8 months or if this is something else I did somewhere along the way, that I can correct right now.

Thanks for reading.

 Quote: Valerie Munk

Oh and the DVDs I have are the Establish Pack Structure, Your Puppy 8 Weeks to 8 Months and Basic Obedience. I learned a lot from those DVDs...I should probably watch them again as I'm sure I messed up somewhere but would also like to know if I should get the Dominant/Aggressive dog DVD even though they are just about 8 months or if this is something else I did somewhere along the way, that I can correct right now.

In a nutshell: My suggestion would be to rewatch the videos you already have, and to commit to them; especially the Pack Structure video.

And please, keep your dogs apart. You've provided them the opportunity to fight at least three times now (expecting a different result each time). And no toys when near each other. Period.

I know the more experienced folks will chime. You have come to the right place if you are willing to impliment the advice you will be given and which is on the videos you've purchased.

ETA: Welcome to the forum Valerie.

Oh they are apart now. I had been keeping them apart, as was advised on this site. I then had them so well trained with recall, that I thought to let them burn off the energy together. Like I said, that went very well for a bit. Then the fight. I kept them separate again for a while and then thought, "Well, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was a little rough that one time..."

When it happened again, inside and out of the house, that's when I asked for advice on another forum. I was told that I was wrong for keeping them separate. I was wrong for "interfering" when I thought they were starting to get rough...I should allow them to BE puppies and allow them to work it out and allow them to find their pecking order in the pack. Oh and I was also told I was wrong for expecting them to view me as pack leader because there is no such thing as a pack. (!!!)

Even though I thought that what this person was saying was wrong, I decided to give it a try. Very bad advice.

Ever since then, they are separate. I was hoping that there was a way to train them early on so that when they were older, this would not be an issue. I mean, the other trainer really laid it on thick that I was doing my dogs a disservice by keeping them separate and not allowing them to work it out between themselves. I was told they would never get to know each other if I did this and what would I expect but a fight? "They don't know each other." (Which is not true, they do know each other.) (And he also does not like this site, I found out when I told him that his advice did nothing good, made the situations worse and that I was coming back here.)

I have watched the DVDs and I did that one week of silence thing with the dogs. Kept them in their crates all the time except to use the bathroom, stood "like a tree" when teaching them where to go to the bathroom and did all that stuff. I did have a bit of trouble with neighbors who have dogs who did not wish to respect me when I told them not to come over and pet my dogs or allow their dogs to come up to my dogs while we were outside, during this time and even now, when I am training them. That made the process take longer and I ended up having to get up at odd hours and take them out at times I knew most people would not be out. Kind of hard to do around here but we did eventually get it done. And it did make a change in them, that worked. One thing I noticed though, and I'm paraphrasing, it was mostly geared towards adult dogs, not puppies. (Exception being the puppy DVD.) So I tried to do my best considering and was doing well until I decided to see if they could have at least 15 minutes to half an hour together in the house and run around outside, after work, for a good hour, together...and actually listened to some idiot on another forum.

But now, we are stepping back, staying separate again and re-watching the videos. Was hoping there was something I could do now so that they eventually could co-mingle. Which, they can as long, as you said, there are no toys around and they aren't off leash. Maybe I'm just too early and need to wait.

Thanks for replying and thanks for the welcome.

Two questions before I chime in.

How much time do you walk them for each walk during the day and total for the day?....walk meaning going briskly from point A to point B without stopping and the dog walking at your side or behind you.

And how do you feel about re-homing one of them?

They get walked/exercised, (meaning allowed to run off leash, played with, etc) for a little over an hour...I know that's not a lot, I put in as much time as I can after work until it gets dark. (Where I live, it is not safe after dark to let them run, I live in the Everglades.) Walking total time per day, work day, is about another hour. Each.

On my off days, three to four hours total running around, exercising, at various times throughout the day and walking is another hour, roughly. So on off days, 4-5 hours total exercise.

I am aware, by reading this site, that rehoming is almost always suggested. I would prefer to find a way to have this work. I am willing to do what it takes to make it work. I know on days I work they don't get enough outside time...I really don't know how to fix that because of work, though. I try to make up for it on my days off.

Separate, they do well. Together, only when off leash and only over toys. There has to be a way to make this work.

Hope I answered your questions.

Hi Valerie, I also have two dogs, they are six months apart, male and female. I do keep them apart, walking each at separate time. Even thou I am on a scooter, the walk gives me time to train on some commands like sit or down as we come to a stop light to cross the street.

Believe you me, if I did not have them apart, they would not be the way they are, one thou is a knockelhead, but I won't trade him for nothing, the female is just about getting in her cycle, so I have to really be careful.

As for this site, as you know, people are willing to help. Dan

 Quote: valerie munk

... Separate, they do well. Together, only when off leash and only over toys. There has to be a way to make this work. ...

You've now seen them fight and then allowed it to happen again. I'm not jumping on you; I'm just trying to make sure you really get it that the people who told you to "let them work it out" are completely inexperienced (or morons).

If they didn't need complete separation before, they do now. Are you ready to commit to this? I don't necessarily think it's forever (although it may be).

I'd be marching them along on walks, one on each side of me, so briskly that no stink eye would even have a chance. BUT if this is not in you yet, don't do it. Don't risk even eye challenges between them

QUOTE:
In a nutshell: My suggestion would be to rewatch the videos you already have, and to commit to them; especially the Pack Structure video.

And please, keep your dogs apart. You've provided them the opportunity to fight at least three times now (expecting a different result each time). And no toys when near each other. Period. END

I agree.


I also wanted to make a comment on what was said about the advice to rehome. This advice does come up, and it's generally because dogs are fighting or because one owner has more dogs than s/he can do justice to. "Rehome" isn't just a standard reply here, that I have ever seen. But the folks on this board tend to think first of the dog's welfare and last of the human's desires.

So ..... can you do it? Because a good pack leader doesn't allow pack members to fight (or even to be fearful of attack).

JMO! I do believe 100% that you're in the right place here. You know, anyone can say s/he is a "trainer." To announce online that one is a "trainer" means exactly zero.

Yes, I do realize that the "trainer's" advice was bad and idiotic. It went against everything I read on this site and I guess I got a little concerned because up to that point, they had gotten along splendidly. The guy who says he is a trainer is one of those complete positive training only type people. I believe dogs do need correction, not just be rewarded when they do the right thing while ignoring the bad. Anyway, yes, he's an idiot. I figured that out as soon as I followed his crappy advice.

I should have gone with my gut telling me that I moved too fast, they need to be separated right now, still, and I guess my desire for them to play around a little and especially to give them each more time outside at the end of the day was a motivator to try letting them off leash together.

Up to this point, I have only taken them on "walks" together once, on leash because I wasn't sure what to do. However, I can definitely start doing that. Initially, when I pull the leashes out, they get excited, (of course), and want to play but I take control of that and they did splendidly on their walk.

When I take them out, separately, I don't do a lot of work on "heeling" or things like that. I am in agreement with something I either read here or saw on the DVD...these are not show dogs, I'm not concerned about heeling. I just make sure they aren't pulling on the leash. But I suppose if I'm going to walk them together, I am going to have to learn how to have them behind me? Not sure how to do that. Advice?

I mean, I hear all kinds of different ways to do it and then someone else comes along and says that way is all wrong, do this, someone else says, 'no, that way is wrong, do this' so who the heck knows what I'm supposed to do.

And well, I completely agree with having the dogs interest held higher than what a human "wants" but I also know that some of us are willing to learn, willing to put in the work and willing to sacrifice things if it means we can have a multi dog household that works. I'd prefer to do everything in my power to make it work than rehome.

Yes, I can do it. What I can say is don't misinterpret or misunderstand me based on what I've written here. I'm not a typical, gutless dog owner. I'm not afraid to put them in their place and I'm not afraid to let them know, I'm in charge. Where I screwed up was wanting them to be able to have time together and instead of splitting that last hour of the day before it gets dark in to two, I was hoping they could play the full hour.

And I'm not an expert, that's why I come to this site, that's why I ordered DVDs, because I most certainly do wish to learn as much as I can. But I'm certainly no push over and while I may have done some stupid things, I'm not stupid. (Not that anyone was implying that, merely setting the record.)

For example, if I tell my dog to go lie down and he decides to think about that for a minute, I am not afraid to go get him and put him in his crate without further discussion. I am not here to negotiate with them, I'm not here to baby them and I'm not here to ask them a thousand times to sit. If they don't sit when I tell them to sit, they get a "time out", as it were, in their crates. (About 2 minutes.) And then they come out and we try that again.

I also do not let them out the door before me, I don't let them down the steps before me, I don't let them back in the house before me and they have to wait, after I open the door, until I'm up the steps. Not only to establish the pack leader role but because I also don't need a dog yanking me up or down the stairs and causing me injuries.

I make them sit, in their crate, while I open the door. I make them wait, until I tell them they can come out, after the door is open. I make them sit before they get their leashes put on. I make them sit in their crate when I give them their dinner and I make them wait to grab it until I've closed the crate and told them they could have it. They are not allowed on the couch, chairs, etc. The boy is also learning that the cats are family members and he may touch them or lick them but he is NOT allowed to chase them or play rough. And if the cat wants to swipe his nose, well, he got what he deserved. The girl doesn't care one way or the other about the cats.

In other words, I have zero problems with telling them what's what and how things are going to be around here. I have no problem with correction. I have no problem with establishing that I am the pack leader, not them. I have no problem with ignoring them if they want to whine and moan in their crates because they are done eating and they want out now. Uh, no, I'll decide when they come out.

My only problem is knowing how to do everything exactly right. That's why I'm here.

So lay it on me. Let's train me so I can better train the dogs.

The walking has to be at your side or behind you...otherwise they are leading.

The very best thing I can tell you to do.....is to get these videos and memorize them:

Watch your pack structure one again....

The Power of Training Dogs with Markers DVD

The Power of Training Dogs with Food DVD

The Power of Playing Tug with Your Dog DVD
The blue ones come in a box set.
I would also tell you to get the dominant and aggressive dog one.
You have lots of questions about this that would benefit from this video.

Your GOOD VALID in depth questions will be answered by these videos...

I am using markers and food but I can definitely use the DVDs to help with that. Thanks.

As for the tugging one, I thought I read that we weren't supposed to play tug if this was just going to be an ordinary house pet...???

And I will get the dominant dog DVD for sure as well as re-view the DVDs I do have.

Thanks for the tips.