Leo now has a lovely "down" --- with an intermediate bridge. Accidentally, the IB turned out to be "ye" (like "yes" with no "s") when one day near the beginning of his "down" work I started to mark with my verbal "yes" but he popped back up before I had even gotten the "yes" out. When he realized that he had jumped the gun, he plopped back down and I kept saying "ye ye ye" for duration.

Now he seems to perceive that "ye ye ye" = duration, and he stays down, not popping up until after I give the marker of yes. But if I stop saying the IB, he pops up too.

I'm thinking to just start over, in the sense that I mark the down as soon as he achieves it, and introduce duration so slowly (like one second at a time) that no IB is needed? Or what?

BTW, this is the only command that he has construed a cessation of an IB to equal a TB (marker).

I hope I've explained this right. I know I can't see the forest for the trees here, so I've gone back to marking it immediately, no duration, while I figure this out.

Any ideas?

eta
I usually don't use an IB except for outdoor moving commands. That is, this IB with a stationary-position command is unique with us, and, as I explained, it came about accidentally.




Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/16/2011 05:32 PM)
Edit reason: eta

 Quote: connie sutherland

Now he seems to perceive that "ye ye ye" = duration, and he stays down, not popping up until after I give the marker of yes. But if I stop saying the IB, he pops up too.

Have you tried a "nope" or "uh uh" when he pops up? Does he know a negative marker yet?

He does know "nope."

I have avoided it because I seem to be talking a lot with this command (and other reasons), but maybe that's the key.

I think I'd try it (nope) since he knows it, before I'd start a new command for this one. However, someone more experienced might have a really good reason for doing so...

Maybe not talking as much as well... heheheheeee.

Do you have ANY idea how um... intimidating it is to be giving YOU ANY advice??? If my idea works, I'm going to get my first tattoo which reads "I helped Connie Sutherland on 12/16/11". With a pug's face.

Think Doug will find this sexy in any way???

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

Do you have ANY idea how um... intimidating it is to be giving YOU ANY advice???

I would have to totally agree Barbara and I think you’re spot on with this. I was pretty much typing up the same thing worded a bit differently.

I't hard when you're this close to something, but I think you hit the nail on the head Connie when you said “can’t see the forest for the trees”. It actually seems quite obvious and I’m sure you’d see it too if someone else was having the issue.

You’ve indicated his down is “lovely”, assuming to be good, fairly reliable? What about just asking for the “down” and saying nothing for a couple of seconds.

They are master anticipators. I’m sure he’s very in tune with your “Ye…s” and knows he’s done what you wanted, the treat is coming and he’s released – up he pops. Once he’s achieved say a 3 second goal…. then “Yes” mark and let him pop up. Next time wait 5 seconds, etc., continually extending the duration.

Take the “Ye, Ye, Ye” right out of it. I know with Vince, he’s very sensitive to any voice commands. If he’s down, he’s down. I sometimes add an extremely calm, quiet “Gooooood”. The “Yes” is pretty much a release as well as the reward is coming.

If he pops up during the first 3 seconds, “Nope” and ask for the “Down” again.

I don't want to hijack your thread at all Connie but this raises a similar down question for me as well? Do you still need to lure (treat in closed fist) at this point? Or can you just tell Leo "Down" (with maybe just the hand gesture)? After three weeks I still have to lure....

Hillary, not speaking for Connie here at all but I'll give you my thoughts. After three weeks, I think you should be able to drop the lure. If not, perhaps something is not clear to your pup?

When I begin with a lure, I'll lure, mark, reward. Lure, mark, reward. I'll do this for several short sessions for a day or two, depending on the behavior.

Then I'll begin adding the command as I begin luring. "Down", lure, mark, reward. Etc... Do this for a few days, with numerous short training sessions.

Then drop the lure. Command, wait. If he doesn't go toward going down, just a "nope" and wait. If he makes ANY movement toward going down, mark and reward. The next time, wait longer, etc...

I hope this helps!

Thanks Barbara I'll try that...she dropped the lure so fast with "sit" it's surprising ..

 Quote: barbara schuler

I think I'd try it (nope) since he knows it, before I'd start a new command for this one.

Well, I didn't mean a new command (new word) -- I mean start over with no duration and increase it one second at a time.

He pops up right away unless I say ye ye ye. Obviously he has two "downs" now, thanks to me: Down and pop up, even with no marker, or down and stay there with ye ye ye until marked with "yes" and then up.

So I guess I have to mark the down so fast that he has no time to pop up, so he "gets it" again that the TB is necessary just like it is on every other command.

I'm reluctant to use nope here. He knows nope, and I do use it with new commands that he's just learning, and he accepts it as part of the routine of learning a command, but this guy when he came a few years ago was so sensitive and worried and anxious about any kind of training (or touching, or looking at ....). I don't think beaten or abused or anything like that, but anxious all the time. And now he's not. I hesitate to use nope when he is proud and pleased and does his doggy-pushups with his eager smile, and he "thinks" he is doing it right because of my mistake.

I think I would rather address it without a negative marker. Just with this dog.

I'm sure I'm over-thinking it; maybe should skip it for a while and then re-start it with really fast TBs for a while.


eta
Marker training gets all the credit for his confidence and loss of anxiety, BTW.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/16/2011 10:59 PM)
Edit reason: eta

"You’ve indicated his down is “lovely”, assuming to be good, fairly reliable? What about just asking for the “down” and saying nothing for a couple of seconds. "

He pops up.

Yes, it's 100% reliable and it's how I want it, but it's split-second now, without the ye ye. LOL