Ok, haven't posted in a while. Sometimes I feel that this board is somewhat biased, but I need advice, and I am trying every aspect in finding out what I did wrong. I also looked for this topic and did not find one to my specifics, so I started another. I know everyone will be brutually honest, and I welcome it. I truly screwed up somewhere.

First of all, I know Ed and his followers do not agree on keeping a "pack" together. Call me an idiot if you will. At this point I don't care, and I know someone will probably (if not all) will tell me "that is why--we told you so."

I am fond of Cesar Millan, and have ordered his book. However, it is not yet available. Watching that show, I have SO MANY questions that are not answered. Most of those shows are based off people who don't have a clue in dog behavoir--and he just starts to establish it. It is not for people who know some things about dogs, and have the alpha position.

To my point now. I have had dogs all my life. I have had a "pack" of dogs all my life. At least five or more, housed together. All different breeds, from rotts, pits, ankle biters, etc. I am currently a K9 handler, and worked at a vet for eight years. I THOUGHT I knew dogs. I THOUGHT I had control.

I am alpha of my pack. No questions asked. My pack as of the 16th consisted of one pit, one boxer (VERY small-30lbs maybe) one olde english bulldog, one jack russell, and one chihuahua mix. The belgian I handle is housed alone in a police dept issued kennel. I am alpha over everyone. The belgian, when allowed with the rest of the pack is the second in command, so to speak. All pack members (with the exception of the OE bulldog) are submissive to the belg. I hav had problems with the OE fighting with the belg. All my dogs are altered except for the belg. The belg has not started the two fights, but quickly finished it when it occurred with the OE. I was present both times these fights occurred, and the rest of the pack DID NOT join in.

Here is my problem. On the 16th, as I was returning home, I noticed a stray large male dog near my pack. I chased the dog off. When I returned, what I saw was horrifying. My four dogs turned and attacked my jack russell--breaking his back and hip. They immediately retreated when they saw me. I had to euthanize the jack.

What happened? I have NEVER encountered this. Why did they turn on one of their OWN? I can understand a stray, but a member of their own pack?

Please tell me what I did wrong. I know it is my fault somewhere.

Thank you.

On duty, had a call.

Continuing...

The dogs, when observed, would have the typical pecking order snarfs. However, they were not dog fights by any means. Just dominance displays. The pack has been fine for three months, when the Boxer became the newest addition. The pit, strangely enough, is the omega. She is the lowest, and will submit to everyone. I have literally had her from day one, (she is 2 yrs now) and she has never shown dog aggression to my knowledge. Even during walks when strange dogs approach, she will sit and stay as ordered, as I deal with the dog. She quietly waits as I handle the threat.

I have had problems with the OE. My husband and I got him from a military family that had to go to Korea. The dog was a three year old, intact male when we got him. He ruled his former home. I immediately neutered him, and began to show him he was no longer in control. We have had him a year now. He challenges me on a regualar basis. I have been severely bitten, however, that has not made me fearful in any way. I still win our battles, and am dominant--just not without casulty sometimes. I just have to remind him constantly. He is SLOWLY, but surely coming around. I can take his food, and roll him over and pin him without him striking back now. But when he is being aggressive towards the belg, and I confront him about it, we still have problems.

The pit has never challenged me in any way, nor has the (now deceased jack) and chihuahua. The boxer hasn't yet, and I don't believe she will. The OE is a male, and the jack was. The rest (excluding the belg) are altered females.

That is all the pertinant info that I can think of. As I stated in my first post, I have always had a pack, that included rotts, heelers, dachshunds, and mutts. All different breeds with different minds. I have never encountered this.

Everyone is telling me it "is normal dog behavoir". Ok, with strange threats or intruders. But one within the established pack? This is disturbing me. I know I am about to get slammed with posts, probably mostly bad. But I screwed up, and I take that responsibility.

I still beleive that having a pack, if you are in control, is not such a bad thing. My dogs are never out (loose) and I am very cognizant about making sure they do not escape. However, the balance somehow got messed up. I know I am playing with dynamite having the three bully breeds together. I feel I lost control, and don't deserve to ever have dogs until I learn much more.

Thank you for letting me post.

Also, I don't ever allow the OE and belg together. I didn't clarify.

I allow the belg to relieve himself in the backyard--supervised. The OE kennel is inside the backyard. When the belg is in the back yard, the OE hurls himself against the fence and snarls and barks. I correct that immediately, and do not allow it to continue. The belg ignores the OE.

Misplaced aggression and not uncommon. They couldn't get at the stray they wanted to, and had to do something so went after a dog that was close.

Think it's one of the problems with keeping small and large dogs, more than just multiple dogs. Even just playing too rough, a small dog can get injured, and if any aggression occurs with a small dog/large dog, it's usually serious.

Think that one good start for you is when you are not around, the dogs are separated from each other. Doesn't matter if you are alpha if you aren't there.

Here's some sites about the misplaced aggression:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/aggressionbasics.html explains aggression and when dogs have 'anger' what can happen.

http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0182.htm

Called Redirected aggression on this site: http://www.unclematty.com/training/aggressiontypes.html

This is for cats and dogs http://www.kingstownecatclinic.com/Redirected%20Aggression.htm

Redirected Aggression
This type of aggression is often misunderstood by humans and may occur more frequently than we may believe. A dog excited in an aggressive response and prevented from response may redirect their response to someone else. Two companion dogs restrained behind a fence from an intruder may attack each other. Redirected aggression starts with another form of aggression, so it is easier to deal with the initial cause than the redirected aggression.

Have to add that with getting all those dogs with some strong personalities in the past few years, it would seem to me that is alot of stress on the pack dynamics. Takes time to work out everyones position, and for calm and happy, even longer. Every time a new dog is added it upsets the status quo all over again, so all the dogs will be on edge again.

I have a pack of 3 dogs, one 12 yrs, one 6, and one a year, and have to say that's all I can handle.

Thank you so much Jenn.

I was reading those articles, and my OE fits in the "dominant aggressive" category. I do feel he is a danger, and I do not allow anyone to come in contact with him without supervision. (I do not have children)

My other fear? I never would have *trusted* my pack before, but I would allow children to play in the yard (supervised of course and minus the OE loose) But now with small children? I am on edge about that--supervised or not. It is my responsibility to make sure nothing tragic happens, and with this happening once, what are the odds of it happening again? With a child this time?

And I do have seperate areas for the dogs. I just need to build another to house the boxer. The pit, belg, and OE have their own kennel. I just wasn't keeping them penned up.

Again, thank you.

Sorry for your loss. I don't think it is necessarily Ed's "followers" that do not believe in having packs, even before I found this site the maximum I would have have together was 2 dogs, that had been together for a long time, and even then there was no guarantee that they wouldn't harm one another.

One quick thought, maybe your are not "I am alpha of my pack. No questions asked." If you try to correct your English and get bit, a true alpha would not tolerate this. In watching wolf pack behavior - the English would have been mauled, or tossed from the pack.

I don't feel a need to beat you up over this, if you learn from it. Maybe there are reasons not to have a pack. You may have just gone through a tough lesson. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Theresa. You are right. But what about my police service dog? I got bit on a regular basis for almost a year when I corrected him. He is (like probably most PSD) a very high drive dog. He doesn't ever challenge me anymore, but the good bond did take a year--and I got bit.

And, about six months ago I did want to euthanize the OE. I will not place him. He is too aggressive. But then I think back to my mal. (and let me assure you, if I could have "mauled" the OE when he last bit me, I would have!)

I don't know if I should say this, but the OE has been "choked out" twice.(never to total unconsiousness) He was trying to attack me and I limited his amount of oxygen and let him fight it out on the end of a leash. After those two incidents, he would respond to me very well, and respect me. But as time goes on, he becomes bully again. It's like it "wears off" or something.

But you are right. I thought the OE would come around. Slowly, but still not satisfactory. And as far as the pack--you are absolutely right. No more pack for me. This was very disturbing to me, and I don't want it repeated.

Erica wrote: I got bit on a regular basis for almost a year when I corrected him. He is (like probably most PSD) a very high drive dog. He doesn't ever challenge me anymore, but the good bond did take a year--and I got bit.

LC: The rest of your situation has been addressed by others and I agree so I won't discuss that. But this paragraph really caught my eye. I hate badmouthing other trainers but I'll have to say that if yours allowed this to go on, there's something VERY wrong with his methods. I've been training dogs for police service for over 20 years and never did I have a handler bit by his own dog except out of confusion.

There's absolutely no reason to have this much conflict in your relationship between you and the dog.

I just posted this link in another thread but it applies here. Take a look at my article on "Establishing Dominance." It's about the 3rd or 4th post down.

http://leerburg.server294.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=147;t=000388

Lou
The link takes you to the old board address. I noticed when using a search enging the links that come up refer to the old board too, so are not working.
Bob

I won’t comment on your statements about other board members. I will give you credit for trying to figure out what happened with your dog pack.

Redirected aggression is what killed your Jack Russell but that’s not the problem here.

The problem is your inexperience with handling dominant dogs and not recognizing that fact. The main problem is dominant pack drive with the Old English.

I have commented on the board that Cindy and I really enjoy Cesar Milan's TV show, he is someone who we feel we could drink beer and talk dogs with. I have written (on this board) that we notice that there are some episodes that cut out scenes and he will all of a sudden have bandages on his arms and hands when working with certain problem dogs. You have to respect someone who takes a good dog bite and keeps on kicking.

I only know a couple of people who could control a pack of dogs like Cesar Melan does. No insult intended but you would not be one of them.

Go to my web site and read the description of how to deal with my DOMINANT DOG COLLAR http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm - this Old English needs this work on a regular basis.

You have already seen the positive results from what I call “taking the air away from a dog”. You have not been doing it correctly. My web site goes into more detail than I have time to here. Maybe (with emphasis on MAYBE) you can fix this dog. My personal feeling is you cannot.

I am glad you have made the decision to not allow children and small people near your dog pack. It was the right decision. Children come apart just as easily as your Jack Russell.

It is a big mistake for you to allow this OE to run with other dogs. He already has SERIOUS dominance issues - running with the pack only elevates pack drive.

If this were my dog it would always have a "dominant dog collar" and drag leash on - it would always have a shaved neck and a Dogtra 1200 on (and it would be trained so that it knew I WAS THE PERSON SHOCKING IT) but more than likely it would probably reside in a dog casket.