Hi there, I have a wonderful 9 month old GSD named Heidi, we have been working for the last 4 months with the e-collar, at least 3 times a week, but there have been several issues.

Collar being used: dogtra 190Ncp

On the leash, she is a total nightmare, and does not acknowledge any command through the collar, when she does something dangerous like lunge at a car we have gone up to levels past 50 which sometimes she screams at others she just shrugs off, and her collar is on pretty snug, high up on the neck.

We ordered a dominant dog collar this week and will try to get her used to that before attempting a walk again

People, other dogs, anything else that might excite her, she ignores the collar completely as well, especially when my roomate or girlfriend comes home, its an all out rush to the front door, which is something she learned from the other dog in the house, and I have been trying to keep her in the Platz position until her head goes all the way down and she is relaxed to avoid this, but sometimes she ignores the collar completely

My thoughts, but looking for yours as well:

I need to go back to the foundational level for at least two months, and focus on marker training, really get her actively looking at me, and listening to the tone of my voice, then slowly begin fading the e-collar back in

Also, on the dogtra collar, i find it really difficult to switch in between working level, and the higher level where I am teaching her to leave the small dog alone, not to lunge at car, or when she even looks like she thinks about jumping up onto someone. I saw the tritronic collar there are 3 buttons per level, this seems like a much better solution for on the go work

Let me know what you think, if you need more information let me know, I am open to all of your advice.

 Quote: jeffrey hill

Hi there, I have a wonderful 9 month old GSD named Heidi, we have been working for the last 4 months with the e-collar, at least 3 times a week, but there have been several issues.

Collar being used: dogtra 190Ncp

On the leash, she is a total nightmare, and does not acknowledge any command through the collar, when she does something dangerous like lunge at a car we have gone up to levels past 50 which sometimes she screams at others she just shrugs off, and her collar is on pretty snug, high up on the neck.

We ordered a dominant dog collar this week and will try to get her used to that before attempting a walk again

People, other dogs, anything else that might excite her, she ignores the collar completely as well, especially when my roomate or girlfriend comes home, its an all out rush to the front door, which is something she learned from the other dog in the house, and I have been trying to keep her in the Platz position until her head goes all the way down and she is relaxed to avoid this, but sometimes she ignores the collar completely

My thoughts, but looking for yours as well:

I need to go back to the foundational level for at least two months, and focus on marker training, really get her actively looking at me, and listening to the tone of my voice, then slowly begin fading the e-collar back in

Also, on the dogtra collar, i find it really difficult to switch in between working level, and the higher level where I am teaching her to leave the small dog alone, not to lunge at car, or when she even looks like she thinks about jumping up onto someone. I saw the tritronic collar there are 3 buttons per level, this seems like a much better solution for on the go work

Let me know what you think, if you need more information let me know, I am open to all of your advice.

Jeffrey, being frank and blunt (but not confrontational), this is the epitome of terrible e-collar use.

Luckily, you recognize the solution, which is "I need to go back to the foundational level for at least two months, and focus on marker training, really get her actively looking at me, and listening to the tone of my voice," except that the tone of your voice is not really a priority. Your voice when teaching the dog is upbeat, calm .... even a negative marker like "nope" has no big evil-sounding voice attached to it .... and except that a two-month time limit is completely arbitrary and not useful.

I would put the collar away until I could get this http://leerburg.com/318.htm and watch it a couple of times.

Tell us how much you know about marker training. I would start over with this dog, at Step One.

What kind of collar are you using? Are you referring to the DD collar as a backup for a prong collar?

As far as the doorbell stuff goes, this is NOT the way to teach the doorbell behavior you want. Is the other dog under the control of someone else? For your dog: Do you have a crate? Do you have a drag line?

First and foremost, IMO, stop using the e-collar. The way you are using it is beyond terrible. Post back with how much marker experience you have and the other questions. Also, whether you have any of the marker DVDs.

I am sure you wanted frank and blunt, and will accept it in the spirit that it's intended.

Frank and blunt is exactly what I want

The DD is on its way we haven't tried it yet, just watched the short video Ed has about how to properly fit it.

Prong collar we don't have, I was planning on just using the DD, until she has learned to follow a gentle tug of the leash, and even at that point, I probably still wont trust it all the way until I have seen how she reacts in situations with more distractions.

her collar at the moment is just a basic 1/2 collar that we picked up at a petsmart a few months back to replace her puppy collar, nothing special.

On monday, we are placing an order for the e-collar dvd, and we have a trainer actually, just havent had the money or time to get back out to her since the beginning lesson, and this was back when Heidi would NOT accept any kind of food treat whatsoever in any environment except our home, now she is a bit more open to it, but still once she gets anxious...wont happen. Which is why I was thinking it was best to return to a complete foundational level and start back with marker training

Marker training:

Have done it before, a lot like I see this ellis guy doing it, using a word such as "yes" for a marker, this and another as an intermediate, or hold until the release "yes", and for me just a simple "nope" when the exercise is going to be started over again. Still, to freshen up along with the ecollar video I thought it would be good to expand my knowledge and see what they have to say training dogs with food video, and possibly playing tug with your dog, since she seems to like toys better than treats in high distraction areas.

Forgot to mention

Crate: yes we have one, she loves it, and has never had a problem with it

Long line: Yes we have one, every other week we still do recall training at least 1 day with it out in our cul de sac to make sure she stays good on that command, the Only time she does not listen to the recall command now is when there is someone at the front door. The other day when we played fetch a neighbor let their annoying dog out, it charged right at her, I simply said here, she recalled I stood in the way of the other dog it turned around and she went right back to playing with the ball after the other dog was up. Recall is her one pretty solid command.



The other dog:
no, that dog is in control of no one, it is not my dog, any ideas on how to desensitize it to the doorbell, or knocking would be lovely.

The DD is on its way we haven't tried it yet, just watched the short video Ed has about how to properly fit it.

Why do you want it? I mean, nothing you have described is DD collar stuff. That's why I asked if you mean it as backup for a prong, in case a prong unfastened. Why are you not using a flat collar?

Prong collar we don't have, I was planning on just using the DD, until she has learned to follow a gentle tug of the leash, and even at that point, I probably still wont trust it all the way until I have seen how she reacts in situations with more distractions.

You need her OUT OF "situations with more distractions." She needs foundation work in a distraction-free space. You and she are NOT ready to take this act on the road. Also, you don't understand what the DD collar is yet. It's not used the way you are describing, and the way it is used, you don't have that situation (or those situations) ... or at least, not from this thread. Even if you did, you have a ton of groundwork to do.


On monday, we are placing an order for the e-collar dvd, and we have a trainer actually, just havent had the money or time to get back out to her since the beginning lesson, and this was back when Heidi would NOT accept any kind of food treat whatsoever in any environment except our home, now she is a bit more open to it, but still once she gets anxious...wont happen.

Get the first marker video instead. Seriously. You haven't done your groundwork yet, and the e-collar was a big mistake at this time. JMO.


....I thought it would be good to expand my knowledge and see what they have to say training dogs with food video, and possibly playing tug with your dog, since she seems to like toys better than treats in high distraction areas.

Yes. Do this. Start with food because it's easiest and doesn't break up the sessions. JMO. You need to be in a distraction-free environment anyway. But yes, two excellent choices.


Crate: yes we have one, she loves it, and has never had a problem with it

Why can't she be crated until the person at the door is in and the excitement has dialed back a notch?

Long line: Yes we have one, every other week we still do recall training at least 1 day with it out in our cul de sac to make sure she stays good on that command, the Only time she does not listen to the recall command now is when there is someone at the front door. The other day when we played fetch a neighbor let their annoying dog out, it charged right at her, I simply said here, she recalled I stood in the way of the other dog it turned around and she went right back to playing with the ball after the other dog was up. Recall is her one pretty solid command.

I meant a short no-handle drag line for indoors.


The other dog:
no, that dog is in control of no one, it is not my dog, any ideas on how to desensitize it to the doorbell, or knocking would be lovely.

Maybe start with your dog, and start by removing her from the whole doorbell fracas for now. Practice doorbell stuff calmly.

Other people will have advice too. You have work to do, that you owe this dog (and yourself).

---I have a rope that I used when she was really young, I guess I can still use that

---Crate is upstairs, usually if someone is at the door I let her go outside and wait until she chills out to let her in, unfortunately it is about 50 - 50 when she comes back in whether or not she will get a burst of energy searching for the new person, at the moment, I'm not allowing anyone to come near her unless she is completely calm, just because its annoying

---I wanted to try the DD collar as it was described as an alternative to a prong collar. Her collar is a flat collar, sorry if the description was confusing.

--What is the difference between the marker video, and the training with food, I thought both of them taught the same method, just a different person in each one.

"---I wanted to try the DD collar as it was described as an alternative to a prong collar. "




Here's the DD page:

http://leerburg.com/746.htm

QUOTE:

This collar is not intended to give a painful correction.
It's intended to take the air away from the dog.

More dogs are put to sleep every day for aggression problems than any other reason. .... Killing a dog must ALWAYS be the last resort. Learning how to use a dominant dog collar can and will often make the difference between having a dog put down or ending up as a pack leader and a dog the you can live with.

I assume that people who use this collar for handler aggression have run their dog through our pack structure program I outline in my DVDs.

Dog owners with aggression problems need to determine if their dogs need a correction, or if they need to have their environment controlled, or if they simply need to redirected their dog away from the situation that triggers the aggression.

The fact is simply avoiding certain circumstances often solves a problem. If your dog is aggressive at the door, put the dog in a dog crate when company comes. If your dog is aggressive at certain dogs on your block, don't walk your dog by that house again.

END QUOTE

 Quote: Jeffrey Hill

--What is the difference between the marker video, and the training with food, I thought both of them taught the same method, just a different person in each one.

#219 (markers) is very basic (but all-encompassing, not just simple no-brainer stuff at all); it is the foundation for all the Ellis videos that follow. #219 would be the one for someone new to marker training to start with, followed by #220, and so on.

If someone already had pretty good marker experience, then they could start with #220 (food).

You could start with #220 (food) and pay careful attention to the recap of basic marker work in it.

Yes, I did read that. However, the video at the top with mr Fawley talking about the applications of this collar he specifically mentions, good for keeping dog calm, good for newer trainers, good for making gentle corrections, good alternative to prong collar, I believe there is even the statement that he has moved further and further away from prong collars as their uses are limited.

I still plan on using just the flat collar until we have a bit of a stronger bond, the DD collar is only to strengthen my position, without having to use a prong collar, which I don't like.

"good for making gentle corrections"


Did you understand that the DD collar is used to hang the dog?

Will more than likely just get the two of those dvds, no reason not see what they both have to say, and its been years since I have seen/used a marker system.