We are having a "discussion" at club about a member's 9 month old male. When practicing the "check-in" for obedience, this dog will attack when you go to shake hands with owner. The obdience training is all motivational, using Flinks methods.
This puppy has also biten several people outside club. At club the owner gives what I think is a good correction, and then had to actually pin dog to ground until it calmed down. This is a very strong dog in protection.
I think it is a problem and should be handled with very strong corrections. The breeder thinks that by doing that, it will ruin the dog. What is there to ruin in a dog that cannot pass the basic tempermant test at every phase of Schutzhund?
This is a first time GSD owner. And he wants to compete with this dog and the dog is often in situation with lots of guests at the home.
thanks

I'll be the first to admit that I know very little about Schutzhund training, but I'm surprised to hear that they would even allow this to go on in a Schutzhund Club. Do you guys think this is a nerve problem or do you think the dog is just too much for the handler? In either situation, if the owner can't control the dog and keep it from biting people, why would they allow this person to train there at all, especially in protection work? Maybe someone needs to tell the owner exactly how it works...if you can't control your dog during training (especially at only 9 months old), not only will you not be able to compete with it, but you should probably find a new home for it and get a dog you can handle.

dogbyte,

This sounds like one, or a combination of several problems.

First, the dog is inadequately socialized. The dog has made the associaiton see a person--->Bite them. This dog doesn't understand that there are people you DON'T bite. Second, lack of leadership on the part of the handler. The dog doesn't understand that the handler gets to determine who you bite or it doesn't believe that the handler can make a sound decision and the dog feels it needs to make the decesion. Third, temeprament problem. It sounds like this dog is way too sharp or has very poor nerves. It is biting from fear (see #1). This is a situation that could have been created through poor training techniques.

The first thing I would do with this dog is stop ALL bite training. The dog isn't getting it. If the bite training doesn't stop until this problem is solved it is going to be a truely dangerous dog. It will have been trained how to effectively bite people, but has no control and no proper basis for evaluation of why to bite. The next thing I would do is socialize the hell out of the dog, this dog needs extensive contact with people that aren't agressive with him. He needs to understand that people aren't out to hurt him. Until this dog can react to a neutral/friendly stranger properly it will only be a liability.

The handler needs to establish with the dog the (s)he makes the descision as to who the dog bites. That means correcting the dog for improper behavior. There is a danger here, if the dog has poor nreves it is easy to over correct and teach the dog that people are bad and he needs to defend himself. The corrections must be the minimum to get the point across. The other thing is work the obedience on this dog. When the handler is coming up to people have him sit and the person ignore the dog. If the dog moves out of the sit to bite, correct for breaking the sit. The dog will associate the correction with what ever command is given next (don't say no bite, say no---> sit/stay).

When the dog is able to handle the basic Neutral/friendly stranger routine, re-start bite training. ALL PREY, no defense at all (this pup shouldn't be being trained in defense any way because of the age). Get solid control over the biting. That means: Bite on command, Out reliable, call off reliable. Then think about defense to increase intensity. At this point you are more interested in the commands and control, the intensity can be built in later.

Originally posted by dogbyte:
This is a very strong dog in protection.
I agree with Richard 100%---stop all bite training right now and start working on control and socialization.

IMO, there are not too many 9 month old puppies that are that strong.........I have seen dangerous 9 month old dogs but only a handfull of 'very strong' dogs of this age. Is it possible that this is a nerve problem??

What are the bloodlines of this dog?

I would stop formal protection training with this dog for now. I would work the Flinks method as to build the grip and keep laying the foundation in ob.

It is more then likely a nerve issue, coupled with not enough or the wrong exposure to the world. I too would like to know the bloodlines.

I agree that the dog should be placed around relaxed people that are not aggressive nor AFRAID of the dog. If they are scared, the dog for sure will cue in on this and own them! The dog as said should be placed in a sit, or down whatever, and when goes to bite, corrected.

I would keep working this dog, having the owner back-tie the dog, maybe with another dog and use a big tug on a long rope, to keep the drive going for the prey item, in a protection type situation, but by having the handler work the dog, it will be all prey work, and really just drive building.

When the dog is calmer around people, I would never work civil agaitation with this dog, if it is going to be s sport dog. Also after the out, when the helper slips the sleeve and the carry is done, out the dog and then make the dog sit, and calmly wait. I would not allow the dog to focus back towards the man. By this I would not allow the dog to fire-up or bark at the decoy. All aggression should be towards the sleeve for now. After time, the dog will focus all of it energy for the sleeve. The dog is never to be threatenend, without the sleeve on the helper until we see that the dog is focused on the equipment. Then maybe you could do a little civil agitation if you need some intensity. This is jumping the gun a bit though.

This is a difficult situation in our club. The puppy is out of Fero lines, both sides, I think.
It's father has been known to be very handler aggresive. The difficulty arises as this is a puppy purchased from our helper.
It has been socialized extensively since the new owner got it. MOST of the time it is ok, or so it seems. They have had it at large family gatherings, pet stores ect.
I feel it has been pushed way to fast in protection and this has compounded a temperment problem.
Memembers of my club may read this and not appreciate the public airing of this problem. But I feel that this is not what Schutzhund wants to represent to the world. I already travel an extensive way to train and would have to make training with another club an overnight trip. I really have no desire to trash this dog, it's breeding or the club.
But it does concern me that the owner is a novice and needs direction in training this puppy before he has a bigger monster on his hands.
I appreciate the responses, which were much what I felt they would be. I have a male that cannot be trusted around small children. Teased by the neighbor kids. And I know not to ever put him in a situation that can cause problems. But this puppy is in a family that has lots of family gatherings and I hate to think of another dog giving schutzhund a bad name. thanks.

I had originally purchase my male in the hopes that I could get into some sport work with him. I had enrolled him in an obedience class at about 6 months of age. The dog trainer had done some Shutzhund work in the past, and she absolutely loved my dog, so she suggested we start doing some bite work with him. Well, about the time we were going to do that, he started exhibiting some subtle signs of a temperment problem. I'm thankful that I had enough sense to pull him out when he started acting weird....it could have been disastrous if I hadn't.

This is the one time in my life I've ever exhibited any common sense <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Poor genetics+poor training=Junkyard dog

Originally posted by oldearthdog:
Poor genetics+poor training=Junkyard dog I am not sure that is entirley true. The genitcs in one's point of view may be a poor. It is from Fero, so I will assume that is the cause of the bit of nerve, as the dog is line-bred on Fero. It would be nice to see what else is in the dogs back-ground.

Lack of knowledge may be the problem. Also it has been stated that the dog is fine most of the time. A dog from working lines is not always the best choice to have around a family gathering. To me this is asking for a probelm. The dog may not be the problem, but the lifestyle of the owners. Coupled that with the fact that the owner wants to do a dog sport with it. On top of that, the dog comes from lines that are a bit nervy sometimes, without proper training. It is not fair for one to call this a junk-yard dog without seeing and really understanding the problem.

Michael, he might have been referring to my dog.