Dana's comments (in response to my queries) got me thinking.

When I first got Roger I was unaware of the specifics on which Mals come from where, and what visual distinctions actually mean. I knew how to distinguish a W/L GSD from a showline, and knew how to distinguish American from European, but when it comes to Mals I sort of figured they were all much more similar.

After attending that FR-themed training session I realized the degree of divergence. The trainer took one look @ Roger and said "KNPV lines." I asked him how he could tell, and he said "Big head, long legs. KNPV dogs tend to be a little bigger."

The other Mals at the session looked much different. One was sort of giraffe-ish with giant ears and was just huge. He was Roger's age. Another was short and stocky, like a little fire hydrant.

I've noticed a lot of similarity between my dog and Dana's dog (to my untrained eye), even though her dog's parents don't look much like Roger's parents.

Anyway, if anyone can shed some light on the divergence of the breed for me, that would be cool and edifying.

Bonus--recent pics of the little guy.

Burglary:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa399/Ross1013/P1000110.jpg?t=1298656795

Sitting on me:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa399/Ross1013/P1000120.jpg?t=1298656841

Nice look at his build:

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa399/Ross1013/P1000162.jpg?t=1298656954

The best would be to talk to Malinois breeders or people who are very familiar with the breed. In my experience, once you get into the KNPV lines you start losing "pure" Malinois and Dutchies. A lot of them are interchangeable. If they come out with stripes, they're Dutch Shepherds. If they come out without stripes, they're Malinois.

Though, I'm no expert. So I can't say for sure that's how it goes. That's just my understanding of it.

And even in the GSD lines there are different divergences - West German working, DDR, and Czech all have their own characteristics and their advantages and disadvantges.

 Quote: katie finlay

The best would be to talk to Malinois breeders or people who are very familiar with the breed. In my experience, once you get into the KNPV lines you start losing "pure" Malinois and Dutchies. A lot of them are interchangeable. If they come out with stripes, they're Dutch Shepherds. If they come out without stripes, they're Malinois.

Though, I'm no expert. So I can't say for sure that's how it goes. That's just my understanding of it.

And even in the GSD lines there are different divergences - West German working, DDR, and Czech all have their own characteristics and their advantages and disadvantges.

Right, I didn't want to go into too much detail about a dog I wasn't directly discussing, but my last GSD was from Czech/DDR parents. She was great, but not good w/kids.

Roger needs a job to do, soon. He's getting really yappy in the house and I need to figure out what the best use of his energies/tendencies is. Not having had Mals before or really knowing any IRL, I just don't know.

Probably a silly question, but how much exercise is he getting Ross? On the rare occassion that Falcon is obnoxious, it is because he hasn't been gotten enough exercise...so maybe Roger is needing a bit more??

I curtailed it, a LOT. He was not showing any restraint and hurt himself a couple times. I don't want to turn a perfectly healthy pup into a dysplastic adult. I took the advice of some in here and cut the exercise back until I can be sure he's OK to go back into the forest w/me.

But, more than that...he needs a more complex style of training, more mental stimulation than I can currently provide. I'm in the process of choosing between two trainers and will be working with one of them within a month.

I mean, how many times can he really ht the tug? He gets bored after a while and so do I.

One of the reasons for the divergence in the Malinois is that they are still bred for the most part with working as the focus, and not for a cookie cutter "look" for the conformation ring. There is some similarity in looks in that everyone appreciates a dog who they find physically appealing, no matter how much they claim they don't care :-) But what I find appealing and what you find appealing may be different.

The other reason for the divergence is that enough though most of the dogs are bred for work/sport, the various jobs and sports have different requirements.

As touched on, the KNPV dogs are primarily mix breeds. The sport they are bred for requires a physically robust dog that can withstand the impacts created when you have a dog and decoy both racing at each other full speed and neither "gives". So these dogs tend to be thicker/heavier dogs. Some people will say this physical type is also for police work, but I think that depends on which deparment you are talking about, since I see many dogs that are smaller/slighter than the KNPV dogs who are very successful police dogs.

The French dogs have to be quick and agile, those are two traits that French Ring requires. Some big dogs are quick and agile, but in general a more moderate sized dog is going to faster in terms of ability to turn on a dime, change direction on an entry, etc. So these dogs tend to be more medium sized and build. Big enough for the jumps and so decoys can't manhandle them, but small enough to retain the extreme agility and quickness the sport favors.

Belgian Ring requires the dogs to be good jumpers, but doesn't have the esquives and quick moves of French Ring, so their dogs tend to be a little larger and more physical powerful. Good jumpers, but generally not quite as fast in terms of directional changes.

Then there are traits certain lines bring to the table. As lines are crossed more and more the traits get "muddy" but it used to be that huge ears meant deux Pottois (2P) bloodlines. White chests and feet meant Elgos influence. Really heavy dark overlay indicated Perle de Tourbiere. Smaller blonde dogs were usually French. etc.

Do these dogs herd?
I don't know where you live Ross but herding sheep is an activity that my dog just DIES over, he just loves it. He has to think, attend, show restraint, be brave. We've gone for a few lessons and even though the lessons are only 15 minutes long he is just exhausted. He starts whining in the car 10 miles from the place, and seems to dream about it for a week. It's not physically tiring at all, people don't want their sheep chased, the sheep are moved at a walk. And sheep, unlike cattle, have about 0 potential for hurting your dog.

Yes, they herd!

The Malinois is a herding breed, techically the Belgian Shepherd - Malinois :-) And most of them do still retain herding instinct. I've doing herding with maybe 1/2 my dogs at an introductory level, and taken a couple of them to competition level.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

And sheep, unlike cattle, have about 0 potential for hurting your dog.

Not quite. Sheep are still 150-200# and can hurt a dog. Butting, running over, etc, etc. My own dog had her face all tore up by a sheep. It was just skin deep so no permanent damage, but it could have taken her eye out. I know of another dog that had her hip dislocated by a sheep.

I know it's not a dangerous overall as cattle, but there still are risks involved.

to the OP -
I know this might be an unpopular opinion here, but I wouldn't recommend herding just as a way to get more exercise for your dog. I wouldn't do it at all unless you plan to seriously pursue it. Because new high energy dogs are stressful to sheep and I don't think it's fair to them to put them through the stress unless you plan on sticking it out and training your dog to a level where it is a useful dog on stock as opposed to something you dabble in to get your dog some more exercise.