I know a woman who has two dogs, one is 3 the other 15 months. One is a chow mix the other a shepherd mix. The chow mix has bitten a woman who was at the front door and the 15 month old just bit a different woman while out for a walk. The woman was a postal worker on the porch of a near by house. The chow got loose from the prong collar and went after the woman. But the shep mix was the one who bit the postal worker when the owner tried to catch the loose dog on the porch. The owner of the dogs has a trainer who evaluated both dogs outside the home and said that neither dog displayed "true Aggression". Are these dogs fear biters, dominate or is this predatorial aggression? How should she deal with them?

Here's an important formula that the owner needs to know:
Chowmix + Irresponsible owner + bitten postal worker = lawsuit and/or loss or insurance coverage.

Seriously, two dogs with a bite each already? In my county the fine is $540 for an offense like this.
How should she deal with this? As the owner has proven beyond a doubt that she can not or will not prevent dog bites, she needs to find a new home for said animals or euthanize them. She needs to take a good look at herself and get a cat instead.
Discussing what form of aggression is taking place is just wasting time and energy with an owner in this type of situation.

It is almost impossible to identify the motivation for a bite over the 'net. There are so many cues that would be available only by watching the dogs and their interactions with people in the type of situation.

The bottom line in a case like this comes down to control. These dogs need serious obedience work. From the description the owner doesn't have near the control required to have both dogs out at the same time. When 2 dogs are out together the "pack" dynamic is much different than by having the dogs out seperately. Without being able to control either dog, controling them together is going to be even more difficult. Even if the obedience is perfect individually, they need to be worked together so that the control extends to that situation.

Second, the owner needs to use the Equipment properly. If the prong "came off" it probably wasn't put on right. Depending on how the collar came off, it could be too large, improperly closed, have a defective "clip"(on some models), or the links could not be applying the proper tension on each other to maintain closure.

Third, and most important, the owner needs to learn how to read the dogs. Every dog will provide cues to when they are going to bite. In some cases they are subtle, but they are there. They are not always what you would expect. As a result of this if you are responsible for these dogs you need to watch them like a hawk, and since it sounds like the bites may have been "unprovoked", if they are outside they should probably be muzzled until they are under contol and the owner learns to read them properly.

Originally posted by Kim Camacho:
How should she deal with them? Doesn't the trainer have the answer to this?

she was advised (not by trainer) to use a muzzle when the dogs are being walked and not try to handle 2 dogs at once. Her trainer told her to not muzzle the dogs.
The owner has created these problems by spoiling these dogs, They were allowed to sleep in the bed and lay on the couch. This is the third trainer for this woman. These dogs could easily rip the leash right out of her hands. Both dogs have lunged at people walking on the sidewalk. As to what kind of aggression this is, I was just curious.

Oh boy! :rolleyes:

I think Will hit the nail on the head for this case. Although, good luck finding a new home for a couple dogs with bite histories. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Folks, I would be the woman from the other board with the chow/lab mix (Buster) and the hound/shep mix. (Knuckles)

I don't know where the "rumor" started that I have been through 3 trainers.
I have just started with a trainer in March (the 21st to be exact) of this year who works with police,drug and protection dogs. (not a clicker or treat trainer)

The clip on the collar came undone (it is the Sprenger collar) I used this because before my neck surgery, I had weakness in hands.
I am going to try the original prong with no clip that we still have

The dogs are now double collared and walked separately

The information that was passed on to you is not complete or accurate.

If you would like accurate info, I would be happy to provide.

The hound/shep is fear aggressive, and becomes frenzied at postal workers and paperboys, but ignores or is friendly to everyone else.

I am not sure about the chow/lab, in addition to fear aggression (that is how he was evaluated) I believe there are other problems and will discuss with trainer.

Dogs behave great in class, no signs of aggression to other dogs or humans. Nor could the trainer bring it out in class.

Also, my husband was not participating in training, would not use the prongs, let the dogs get away with things, etc. That is in the past.

Going forward,

The dogs wear prongs and tabs at all times.
Dogs are no longer allowed access to our deck area unless we are home
Dogs are not allowed on furniture or bed
Dogs are attending obedience training weekly
Dogs are corrected (each and every time) they show inappropriate behavior
Both dogs are responding well to the training and are making progress.
I don't expect them to turn around in a short period of time. This will take work and commitment on our part, which we are willing to do.

So, the dogs will not be put to sleep nor would I try to rehome them.

When we adopted them it was for the rest of their lives.

They shouldn't have to pay for our mistakes as owners.

Any constructive advice is welcomed.

I don't know if this will be helpful or not, and it may not be the type of advice you're looking for.

My dog run is the side yard of my house, where the neighbor's back door opens to a four foot wide area that runs parallel to the fence line, between his house and my property. The neighbor occasionally needs to go behind his house to trim the weeds (which I want him to do, as I garden, and he has some weeds back there that I don't want spreading into my yard), to retrieve his lawn mower, or to take his bicycle in and out of his garage. Whenever he appears, my dogs go nuts, barking at him in an unfriendly, threatening way. If I am out there, I can stop them, but I'm not always out there. I feel like the guy should be able to go about his business on his own property without feeling threatened by my dogs. Since my dogs are not for home security purposes, and I don't feel threatened by my neighbor, I decided I needed to remedy this situation, for the sake of peace with my neighbor.

Last week, I attached a plastic basket on his side of the chain link fence that separates the dog run from his back walkway. In this basket, I placed several tennis balls, along with a note sealed in a plastic bag to protect it from the rain. The note instructed the neighbor that if he wants to, he could toss a ball for the dogs whenever he comes into his back walk. I wrote that the dogs would probably get used to him and be friendlier if he tosses a ball every time they see him.

My husband was out in the run poop scooping last weekend while I was out of town, and had the opportunity to chat with the neighbor. He said that he had been tossing the tennis balls, and that it seemed to be working. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps a basket of tennis balls or treats near the mailbox and paperbox, for the mail and paper carriers to toss to your dogs, might have a similar effect?

It likely is not fear but territorial. Dogs go "postal" at delivery people because they see them come and leave. A barking dog thinks it was his barking that chased them off. Over time the dog gets it in is head the postal guy is a REAL bet on omega type and so he is willing to take the action to him.

This is a simplified explanation of one likely possibility but there is no way of knowing unless someone who knows what he sees the dog or she is looking at.

The way to fix it is to isolate the dog or set the dog up for a correction. This means being ready to deliver it when (better as the dog is about to act out) it happens.

It will take some keen observation on your part but if your postal worker arrives with a delivery at relatively the same time each day, it is at this time the behavior needs to be addresses and hopefully extinguished.

It will take several days and you need to commit to it each-and-every day or forget it

Hi Folks,
I was a moderator on the other board where this woman originally presented with her dogs over a year ago. This woman was one of the reasons I stopped going there all together.
Don't waste your time in giving her any advice (not Kim the original author of this thread, Linda the woman who owns the dogs). Over a year ago, before either dog had a bite, I advised her to get to a trainer ASAP based on lunging, growling on walks and terratorial behavior on the porch. I also said, months ago, that she would not take action until she was scared into it. I tried to tell her then the path her dogs were headed was only in one direction.
Over the last year, this woman has repeatedly ignored free advice, she is the type to only listen when shelling out the big bucks. On the other board, she is now forbidden to post about her dogs anymore for at least 2 months by the admin of the site, because of the trouble she starts, with 100 replies, and over 800 reads in some cases. Ed if you are reading this, I can only suggest to you to do the same before she turns the atmosphere here as sour as it went there.
I have to agree with Will here whole heartedly that she is probably to the point now with these dogs that they will never be trust worthy in public and should be put to sleep. I have told her this, and she reiterates to me she will continue to work with the trainer, which is her perogative. Since having them pts is not an option for her, nor is muzzling the dogs in public, and she admits her hands are too weak to give a motivational correction with a prong collar I think that should be enough info for you reasonable folks who regularly work with aggression to know we are not dealing with a person who is able to take responsiblity for 2 large breed fear aggressive dogs. The last option for her is working with an e collar, but I don't know if she has discussed this with her trainer, and to be honest, I really don't care. I just wish I can warn you folks before you invest too much of your precious time in trying to give her advice not to bother because it won't make a difference.

Michelle