Outside of bitework, how much does gentics have to do with drive and working ability? I'm curious if you can build really good drive with any dog or take any dog to top level obedience or do you need to get the right dog genetically? Wondering because it seems that there's only a few breeds that do anything e.g coliies etc for agility, mals shepherds rotts etc for bite sports. I know there's a few more breeds coming into these things but they're a rarity and am wondering if it's the breeds themselves or it's the people that get these other breeds that don't want to do this stuff? Could you obedience title a Chihuaha (no idea how to spell it) for example?

Genetics have a lot to do with it, but not everything.

Different breeds can all have drive, but the drive will be a little different from breed to breed.

For example, I had a weimaraner who probably would have been able to do search and rescue. My current GSD might also make a good SAR dog. Both would be good at agility. Both could do competitive obedience.

But you could never in a million years get my weimaraner to do protection work. He would have freaked out. If you worked my GSD, someday she would probably willing to get serious.


The reason for this is because both dogs were bred for hunt and prey drive, but the GSD also has defensive drive. The weimaraner absolutely did not.

If I've mislabled or made any mistakes in what I'm saying, somebody feel free to correct me. OP, keep in mind that I'm only learning, too.

I agree 100% with you Lauren. Genetics has a lot to do with it, but is not everything.

Example: Koenig had next to no training when I got him, but took to bite work IMMEDIATELY after he was introduced to it. Thats pure genetics at work.

I won't bother trying to elaborate more then that, because you explained it well, and I'm sure the experts will chime in.

Edited by Kelly Byrd (03/08/2011 08:15 PM)
Edit reason: not done yet. :)

My last GSD was a very gentle, stable dog. If someone were to approach in the dark, he might bark, or he might just stand his ground beside me.

He loved sticks, but it took me 3 years to get him to want to chase one enough to swim for it. His prey drive just wasn't high, and no amount of work, on my own, or at the club, was going to get it there.

My current dog has extremely high drive, and is a natural retriever. If I don't throw anything for him, he picks up random objects and throws them at me. His sire is the same way, so was it passed down directly from him, or is that just a general character trait of this "type" of dog? Or, perhaps dogs from these "lines" in general?

When I see video of his half brother, and talk to his owner, they have many things in common, but again, are these things passed down directly from the dam - or are they just common among the lines, or they "type"?

Judging on my personal experience - I would say that you can not build drive in just any dog.

You can't put something in to a dog, but you sure can take a whole lot out.

In other words, you can't improve a dog's drive in terms of genetic, but you can fail to exploit the drive that's already there. Drive has to be developed, and it can be suppressed.

I wish I could 'like' your last post Aaron! That is EXACTLY what I was wanting to say, but not finding the words for.

Here's a link to someone doing obedience and rally with their Chihuahuas: http://www.calmontchis.com/work.html

In January of this year, Linda's Rosita Bonita UDX, VER, RA, became the first Chihuahua to earn her UDX and is now working towards her OTCH. She also was invited and participated in the 2010 Eukanuba Obedience Invitational.

And my dog's breeder does obedience, rally, agility, and weight pulling as well as some conformation with her Toy Fox Terriers.

Don't ever sell the little guys short. It's really too bad that more people don't at least provide basic training for their smaller breed dogs. There's a lot they can do if given the chance.

That's really cool thanks Elaine! And thankyou everyone for your input.

 Quote: brad higgs

Wondering because it seems that there's only a few breeds that do anything e.g coliies etc for agility, mals shepherds rotts etc for bite sports. I know there's a few more breeds coming into these things but they're a rarity and am wondering if it's the breeds themselves or it's the people that get these other breeds that don't want to do this stuff?

Brad,
Here in the US, protection sports are not nearly as popular as they are overseas. So, those who compete tend to do so in "pockets" with very limited breeds of dogs. I know it seems crazy to say protection is "not really popular in the US", while here on the LB site, but if you look at it as a "per-capita-dog-owner" statistic, it is very limited.

In Europe, however, they are go-to sports. Just about every neighborhood has dog-training clubs. They train obedience, IPO/Sch, each country's ring, and mondioring.

My tawny Briard bitch comes from a family of dogs who has had great success in the protection sports. Those sports are just not as popular here in the US, or as accessible. Overseas you will see the usual GSDs and Mals, but also Briards, Beauceron, Bouviers, and many other breeds successfully competing right along side of them.

Here are some shots of my bitch's half-brother. His son now is also showing great promise, placing 3rd of 6 in his class at his first Mondioring trial just last week.

http://www.briards-photos.fr/photos/displayimage.php?album=47&pos=1

So, while it's my personal feeling that the genetics are there, if people want to build on them, it's most often a matter of training. Here in the US, people are just overall not as open to/interested in training many of these disciplines. Those who are can be hampered by accessibility to clubs/training venues.

Best,
Tracy

..Tracy, what a head turning dog!
Brad you know I always appreciate your take on your bully life in Australia (i.e. you can't have an APBT but can have a registered AmStaff) -do you encounter breed prejudice with your crew in other disciplines?
Agility folks tend to look down their noses at our guys and Sch clubs where I am can be extremely clique-ish. This tendency just drives me to work harder to change hearts and minds to overturn the perception of what was once, and can be again, a fabulously versatile working breed. Diane Jessup, a name I'm sure you now, titled her dog in all disciplines.
That being said, I think it is best, and realistic to evaluate each dog's capacity as an individual. My former girl (AmStaff) tested well and began PPD work -my boys' had a blast learning to catch dogs and participate in our trainer's club. He'd love to test Shiva when she's two...but I don't see it -no apparent drive at all for this and that's perfectly fine with me...