I'm not even sure if this is the right conceptual approach. I've just started Ed's Dominant and Aggressive Dog dvd and I'm starting to understand some of the issues I have been struggling with. I think I have been confusing corrections for obedience - ie. learning a new behaviour, with corrections for dominance - ie. growling at sounds from the street.

Jethro loves to learn, and I've started a new campaign with him, to get him familiar with a Sit, Down, and Wait on ever block (corners and mid-block) in our 'territory' (the range of our geographical area). I realize this is obedience work, but doesn't it also contribute to solidifying my position as pack leader?

I think it is my role as pack leader that I am most challenged to fulfill because, let's face it, a woman my age (55) has a lifetime of enculturation to overcome. You want passivity? How about passive aggression? Okay, then - depression and suppressed rage? Nooooo - its assertiveness, command presence, confidence, consistency, leadership - get with it!

But what do those behaviours look like? And please, I need more than leash corrections. Jethro doesn't read leash corrections as leadership. He sees them more as an annoying mosquito preventing him from pursuing that powerful scent. I'm getting much faster at stepping on the leash because that actually puts the brakes on in a no-nonsense way.

First, I would erase "depression" and "passive aggression" from the vocabulary of a pack leader. Focus on and pay attention to (give life to) what you want ... not junk that you no longer want or need.



Then ....

What behaviors so you see that you believe are dominance that needs correcting?
Or actually dominance, period?

Also, what are you using leash corrections for (separate question) aside from standing on it, I assume for jumping?

 Quote: jenny arntzen

assertiveness, command presence, confidence, consistency, leadership - But what do those behaviours look like? And please, I need more than leash corrections.

I think sometimes the simplest things can telegraph leadership--one of them is simply asking for a behavior (sit, for example) before letting the dog have what he wants--the bowl of food, exiting a room, passing through a doorway. And then simply standing there for as long as it takes for the dog to make up his mind to comply. No force. No repeating the command. Just standing your ground until he realizes you're not going to be a pushover.

Once you *know* that he knows the drill, you don't even have to ask for the sit. Just stand there with the leash in your hand, or the food bowl, or at the car door--and let him work out the self-calming and "saying please" that acknowledges that you are the keeper of the good things in his life.

To me, dominance is actively growling, baring teeth, threatening to bite because you've done something or asked something of the dog. i.e. he's on the bed, you tell him 'off' and he growls at you. That's dominance to me! He is actively challenging your authority over him.

The things you describe -- pulling on a leash, barking at noises -- don't seem to be dominance issues but 'more training needed' issues. That's just my opinion of course.

Michael Ellis on Dominance in Dogs This video has a very good explanation dominance and other things people mistake for it.

"First, I would erase "depression" and "passive aggression" from the vocabulary of a pack leader. Focus on and pay attention to (give life to) what you want ... not junk that you no longer want or need."

Easy to say, its a life long practice to do. Working on it.

"What makes you believe that you are seeing dominance that needs correcting? Or seeing dominance, period?"

Dominant behaviours inventory (my admittedly inexperienced interpretations): on leash barking and lunging at passing dogs (whether they are on or off leash); barking and lunging at scents on the ground around our corner; barking and lunging at any movement as we approach our corner at the end of our walk, definitely worse at dusk and in the dark of night; barking and lunging at the windows when dogs pass by the house day or night (the sound of jingling tags, other sounds that we can't hear, he can't see, but he senses none the less from inside the house); barking and lunging at puppies (on or off leash); there are a couple dogs in our neighbourhood (Rusty and Chango) that Jethro goes medieval on, no matter how close they are - if he picks up their scent he goes into a barking, lunging frenzy; barking and lunging at Hank, the intact Staffy in obedience class; mouthing and nose bumping me when we are getting ready to go out on a walk; constant pushiness at the door unless he is following obedience instructions (always needing obedience commands to get him to wait so I can go out first; barking and lunging at passerby from the front porch; barking and lunging when we are out on the field if another dog enters the field (even if we are at the far end); barking and lunging at dogs on leash (or not) passing the field on the other side of the fence; jumping up on my husband; whining at my husband; mouthing my husband... I just want to add, this constant feeling of being pushed, and having to stand my ground. If I relax at all, he just pushes for more (of anything)

That's about all I can think of right now.

I am using treats and a clicker, although I have also added Yes for those moments when both hands are busy.

As far as exercise goes: 3 - 4 walks per day (usually both dogs, sometimes I get to take him out alone) with a different combination of activities as part of each walk -

Walk 1 - morning pee and poo - mostly loose 12' leash, sniffing, practicing Sit, Down, Wait, Come at random spots (this is new and seems to be helping a lot). I'm also working on getting Jethro to respond to tension on the leash by turning back to me instead of pulling harder to follow a scent (moderate arousal). Some structured Heel but mostly relaxed. 30 - 45 minutes

Walk 2 - midday - 3 20 minute segments - 1. structured Heel w/ Sniff/Sit at the end of each block; 2. walk w/ tug play instead of picking up sticks, giving me attention, practicing Take It and Give, getting in some jumps (seems to help settle him down); 3. structured Heel w/ Sniff/Sit at the end of each block. 60 minutes

Walk 3 - late afternoon field exercises - playing with toys, practicing Fetch, playing tug (Take it, Give), recall games, and self control games - Look at That, What's That, Watch - there are usually other dogs on the field and I don't let him play as a general rule, other times I give him a chance to socialize with mixed results (I get confused on this point because we were told to give him lots of opportunities to socialize when we adopted him, but the general approach on this board is no socializing so my brain tends to switch between the two and it isn't helping either me or Jethro) 60 - 90 minutes depending

Walk 4 - last call - brisk structured Heel with pee/sniff breaks

"what are you using leash corrections for (separate question) aside from standing on it, I assume for jumping?"

I find myself pulling on the leash (corrections or manual steering?)
1. unwanted sniffing
2. unwanted attention on other dogs
3. unwanted attention on people
4. growling at passerby through the window
5. unwanted barking and lunging (cats, skunks, coyotes, birds, etc.)
6. unwanted staring
7. unwanted socializing (pulling to sniff or greet another dog or my husband)
8. unwanted jumping up on people

That's about all I can think of.

Just to complete my report:

Jethro is now approximately 1 year old, shepherd x, 80+ lb, eating a raw diet and his treats are home made from various cheap meats that I cook and cut up for training.

He doesn't not growl at me, he used to redirect aggression at me, but that has stopped. He will follow my pointed finger, especially if I block any exits.

Thanks for clarifying the Sit routine, Tracy, I've gotten a start on it, but I don't think I was doing it properly. We have been practicing Nothing In Life is Free since the beginning, and it makes a huge difference.

I gotta rush off to training, but just want to say after skimming the list that I see pushiness (demanding attention, and I betcha getting it ) and reactivity.

I don't really see dominance.

Still, assuming that you are seeing a bunch of reactivity and pushiness is probably a safe assumption. (Definitely check out that Ellis link; I don't have time, but I'm sure it's better than anything I'm typing.)

Have you read any desensitizing threads here?


Also, ... "late afternoon field exercises - playing with toys, practicing Fetch, playing tug (Take it, Give), recall games, and self control games - Look at That, What's That, Watch - there are usually other dogs on the field and I don't let him play as a general rule, other times I give him a chance to socialize with mixed results (I get confused on this point because we were told to give him lots of opportunities to socialize when we adopted him, but the general approach on this board is no socializing so my brain tends to switch between the two and it isn't helping either me or Jethro)."

Socialize doesn't mean to you what it does to me. The general approach here is NOT "no socializing." I want a dog who is calm and non-reactive, tolerant of -- almost indifferent to -- other dogs. This doesn't mean playing with strange off-leash dogs.

So when you say "a chance to socialize," I see (I think) that you are thinking of "socialized" as "used to playing with strange dogs."

Ah! I'm late. You have a video clip to look at, and you will get other, better advice (such as Tracy's and Deb's) anyway.

Jenny - I so understand what you are dealing with. I have a dominate, pushy, demanding, manipulative dog and I did not even realize it until I became accuately aware that she had little respect for us as pack leaders. Not only do I have a dominate dog, I have a husband that is her "Sugar Daddy!" You get the picture. Once I viewed and reviewed Leerburgs DVD's on Dominate and Agressive Dogs and Pack Structure my eyes were opened and Tasha (and my husband) found out that there was a new sherrif in town! I began to apply the principles in both of these videos and she is like a totally new dog. We are amazed with the changes in her behavior and now that we are well educated we will have no excuse in the future if we let her slip back into her old bad habits.

I also purchsed the Dominate Dog Collar from Leerburg. It is a MAGIC collar, trust me. It only took a couple of corrections for lunging and Tasha got the picture...not that she will not slip up and not ever make a mistake again but she knows that it is an easy choice for her to make if she lunges..having her air cut off with the collar or praise and jackpot treats for making a "good choice" not to lunge. Any fool would know what to choose and your Jethro is much smarter than any fool. I strongly recommend the dominate dog collar if you do not already have one.

Another thing that is worth a million bucks is a back pack. Don't ask me why but when Tasha wears her back pack it is like she is transfigured into "super working dog"...focused and more manageable. In fact she turns into a dream girl and mind you she is only carrying two water bottles, but to her she is carrying the Holy Grail and the fate of human kind is on her back. If you do not have a back pack I would recommend getting one. I have the Ruff Wear Approach Pack. It is worth the investment.

I agree with Connie regarding socializing...it is privilege that the dog earns for being calm and submissive and I only give it to Tasha under very careful guarded supervision. I used to think that I needed to socialize Tasha with other dogs, until I realized that I was putting her in danger and derailing the results I wanted from her which was a calm submissive dog that would follow my commands without hesitation. I stopped worrying about "socailizing" Tasha and focused on "proofing" her commands. There is ample opportunity for her to be socialized in her obedience classes and with family and friends under my supervision. If need be, I will take her on-leash to the shopping mall so that people can pet her and give her treats under my supervision. That way I can tell the people she is in training and I can decide when and with who she gets to introduce herself to. If I need to correct her because she is not polite, people understand because they know up front she is in training.

I am no training gurue (sp?) and I know there are others on this site that have far more extensive training experience than me so trust their advise. I am just offering you my opinion based on what worked for me. I hope that it helps.

 Quote: debby meder

Jenny - I so understand what you are dealing with. I have a dominate, pushy, demanding, manipulative dog and I did not even realize it until I became accuately aware that she had little respect for us as pack leaders.

I'm looking at a laptop at training and hoping that the link above does not go unnoticed:
http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/Dominant-dogs.flv

"Pushy, demanding, and manipulative" do not equal "dominant."

We are seeing the word "dominant" used a TON here. You know that most dogs are not dominant, right?

I'm thinking that there is great willingness and reading/research going on, but that maybe there are definition inconsistencies.


"Lack of respect for pack leaders" is the pack leader's issue; it's not a dominant-dog sign as much as it is a failure of the pack leader to step up and assume the role.



That said, the backpack is a good tool.




I know that other experienced advice will come onto the thread too, but meanwhile, please do not consider "dominance" is being bratty or pushy or social-climbing; it's not. I truly doubt most folks who say they are dealing with a dominant dog.... not their perception, but the fact. They probably are not. (Again, please see the Michael Ellis link.)

Also, before anyone rushes to acquire a DD collar, I urge that Ed's entire page about their use be read. It's not a regular training tool for pushiness or reactivity. JMO.

http://leerburg.com/746.htm

QUOTES:
"I assume that people who use this collar for handler aggression have run their dog through our pack structure program I outline in my DVDs."

"Dog owners with aggression problems need to determine if their dogs need a correction, or if they need to have their environment controlled, or if they simply need to redirected their dog away from the situation that triggers the aggression."

"The fact is simply avoiding certain circumstances often solves a problem. If your dog is aggressive at the door, put the dog in a dog crate when company comes. If your dog is aggressive at certain dogs on your block, don't walk your dog by that house again."

The DD collar is "about rescuing a dog that others would have killed."