Pat
As you know, I was the person that owned Feivel and I think that it's important to understand that Feivel's problem was that he was allowed to mis-behave as a young dog and that coupled with his strong personality and toughness, led to what he became. Even though he was dangerous because of that, he was a VALUABLE breeding dog and often times, you have to take the good with the bad when trying to produce the kind of dogs that you like. Feivel is not producing that in his offspring which only proves to me that his issues could have been prevented.

i was not asking for info on feivel in particular, but bloodlines in general. if you check the thread you will find discussion on crok sons vs daughters. anne offered some sage advice on handling difficult dogs and some others were discussing male vs female handlers. this is the sort of discussion i was hoping to further. most of this was off topic on the feivel thread so ed suggested we take the discussion to another thread. that's all i was doing. i still believe any info on difficult dogs/bloodlines would be helpful to share....perhaps avoiding some mismatches of dogs and handlers. *by the way, best of luck with your new dog, cliff <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One particular thing I have noticed over and over is that CERTAIN people seem to bring out or allow dominant and dangerous behavior in their dogs. I know of a few folks that have taken what I would consider good, strong dogs and turn them into dangerous and dominant animals. I think what many people don't realize is that for dogs it must be black or white in terms of either being the leader or the follower and for a strong dog of any breed, 'shades of gray' in the pack order will cause them to challenge leadership. I do believe with the cases of this that I have witnessed the persons involved did not recognize the subtle signs the dog showed at first. If you can't read blatant dog behavior (which many people can't) then the small nuances will slip by undetected and the dog takes that as a rung on the ladder to being boss......

This many times leads to the handler being bitten or growled at and then getting by with it. The dog has then been "rewarded" for this and becomes stronger and stronger. By the time many of these dogs are then offered for sale (because the original owner finally realizes they can't handle the dog) they are very confident and dominant..

I see this in my grooming business as well.... the little schnauzer or Lhasa won't let the owners clip nails or brush them...they snap or growl and the owner backs off. They try again and the dog repeats what worked before, etc.. By the time they come to see me the dog is downright CONVINCED that I should not be touching them!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Big or small, some dogs have rank issues and a big strong Mal or GSD can do a whole lot of damage if you cross the line with them. This type of dog needs someone with clear understanding of dog behavior and a clear head as well. (i.e. Kevin Sheldahl, Bernhard Flinks,Bill Kulla, etc...) I know a lot of really excellent dog trainers but only a handful of people who understand a truly aggressive, rank and dominant dog. Just my 2 cents..

Bingo!

I see this exact problem in dogs in the shelter. No problems when they are here with people who don't take any ka-ka.. but send them home with someone who wants to say "oh, he was in a shelter, he must have been abused" and they have BIG problems in a very short amount of time. This cycle, which tends to get repeated with shelter rejects,(the dogs who come back again and again) can absolutely RUIN a decent dog sometimes costing the dog its life. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My dogs know they have two choices... we can do this MY way(nice) or we can do this MY way (not-so-nice) either way... I AM THE BOSS! Dogs are more comfortable in environments where the rules are clear. They are calmer, and a whole heck of a lot easier to be around.

Anne's previous statements about controlling emotions were DEAD ON in my experience. Good handlers will get a toggle switch for their happy-not happy-happy feelings. Dogs are non-verbal animals.. becoming emotional (especially verbally) only tends to confuse/distract them.

I agree with what is being said about handlers making stupid mistakes with a dog that is dominant. Allowing certain behaviors one day and then trying to stop them the next. I know that by comming to this site, using Ed's materials and following a consitant trianing plan things have gone much better for me and my pup. Having a dog that is prone to domiant behavior is a responsiblity that some people just do not take seriously and then the dog suffers and ends up abused or in a shelter. Although Siberians (in my case) are not typically aggresive if left to get away with certain behaviors while young it could and would turn into aggresion. I see so many dogs at the shelter I voulenter at that owners just could not get a grip on, so they bring them in, and expect someone else to adopt their problems. Most of the dogs with time and correct handeling turn out just fine and can be placed in homes with reletive certainty about there behavior, but then again there are those who at some point would have been great pets, but due to improper cercumstances are ruined. Any breed when handled incorrectly can become the " <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> DOG FROM HELL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> " and it is unfortunate. If they would learn that asking questions no matter how stupid you think they are, and educating yourself on proper techniques, and if needed contacting a pro, will ensure that you have a good dog/owner/handler relationship. So many potentialy good dogs would be spared from being PTS if they would just follow that plan. I always said "Stupid questions are the ones that are never asked."