Greetings everyone, first time I have posted on a forum before. I will briefly introduce myself and get on with what I am currently in the middle of.

My name is Ken Kinyon, I live in mid Michigan. I used to be a professional motorcycle racer a long, long time ago, broke my neck in a race and am paralyzed from the chest down, have most of the use of my arms and hands, been in a wheelchair since I was seventeen, am fifty now. Not a big deal.

I have an eleven year old Australian Shepherd named Raven, ranch working lines, I trained him myself to be my helper. I also have a nine year old Shiloh Shepherd named Hauk; he is a large, extremely soft temperament lump. Both are neutered. Both are fine around other animals, I have a rabbit, chickens, they were taught to leave them alone. Both are fine with cats, other small animals.

I trained both with limited knowledge of engagement work, but used my own version of marker training. As these eleven years have flown by, I have increased my training education by watching Leerburg DVD’s, so far Marker Training, Puppies to eight months and Ellis food. I have also worked a little with a former lead person on the USA Schutzhund team. Overall, I get it; I have watched the DVD’s over and over and over, in my mind’s eye trying to adapt methods shown to what I would have to do from the wheelchair. (a manual, push type chair) Not always easy but I am sure I can do it.

I had a plan but of course, as we all know, those often go out the window! Because Raven is eleven I have been planning on another puppy for a time now, he will be trained by me to be my new helper. So far the two breedings I liked have fallen through for different reasons so no pup is imminent. So, still planning on a Czech line GSD, saving money.

Yesterday I did something that I never thought I would do and it has set back my puppy arrival further yet. I brought home a “free to good home” ten month old Sheltie/Aussie/Border Collie mix. She is untrained, not house broken or house trained, unsocialised, has never had toys, has only eaten horrid food, has no vaccines at all. She has been either in a kennel with her mother, she was a litter of one, or has been allowed to run free.

The family has fifteen children, not all are there at one time but she obviously has been around kids, two other neighborhood dogs and her mum. There are no children in my household. She will be taken to my vet for a checkup, but she seems outwardly, to be in excellent physical condition. We noticed today that she is spotting when she peed.

We will call her Freya. She will be my best friend’s dog.(her name is Akula) She has been watching Leerburg DVD’s as well and listening to me for a year now discussing training plans. She has wanted a dog as well, one that will be hers alone, will follow her, travel, share bedroom, a close companion, maybe even some light agility. I just had a strong hunch that Freya would be the one for her, in spite of having a poor start in life.

We are very patient. We have also read Ed’s articles on new dog intro, etc. but of course each situation has its own little twists and turns. I have a pretty good idea of pack structure as well. Yes, I know three dogs are a pack. Yes, I know Freya may or may not fit perfectly, may never be allowed the freedom my other two dogs have privilege to.

Description: Fearful of my wheelchair, she crouches low but will allow me to charge the mark when she looks at me. She shows a strong preference for Akula which is a good start for them. We live in the same house so Freya will HAVE to be comfortable with me, will need to walk on lead for me to potty, whatever we need to do when Akula is away.

I think the issue here is that I am above her, it seems like I am “hovering” above her in her mind. If she is in the next room and sees me move she barks and backs up. The second day, today, she was a little better with me, she even rose up and put her front paws on my lap when we were outside, let me pet her gently. If Akula picks her up and sets her in my lap, she is quiet, allows me to touch every part of her including toes and teeth, no stress yawning, no quivers, no sounds. She will not make eye contact however. A few times she has taken treats, other times no. (While still on my lap)

She is fearful of fast movements, she flinches, crouches low, nothing else. When Akula is on the floor, she will gently play, rolls on the floor in submissive belly up posture, she did it for my seventy year old mother too, but when she saw quick motion she crouched. The method of treating that Ellis uses, “Yes” followed by a motion of the arm and hand to make the dog follow, increase drive only makes her flinch and crouch.

She has great eyesight; from inside the house she sees the chickens in their pen across the yard, barks wildly. She will eventually need a remote collar but when?

For the trip home she let us put her in a harness and buckle her into the back seat of the car, rode quietly.

She has a soft mouth, takes food gently. She had never been in a crate but entered hers without issue and has been relatively quiet when inside it. We need some chewies to keep her occupied. She doesn’t know what toys are but seems interested at least a little. It is difficult to lure her.

She is now only in Akula’s bedroom, crate is there , not allowed any freedom, she is on a lead as soon as she comes out of the crate, walks to potty and back for a session of quiet play, petting, snuggling, grooming and back in the crate. So far no potty incidents in her crate but she is vomiting her treats and food.

The food is Wysong, as she looks at raw meat as if it were an alien being. We will try a less rich kibble and keep working on the meat issue.. Each kib is given to her by hand, charging the mark. So far her timidity is holding up the “lightbulb” in her head that “YES” equals a treat. She takes treats intermittently, one time she will eagerly take a treat and the next second will back away. When she goes out to potty, on lead, she doesn’t quite get the exercise but when she finally pees she will not take a treat but responds well to the party! She has been here now for 48 hrs. She has seen my two dogs in the background as I go through the door and immediately barks furiously at them, I even heard a teeny growl this afternoon. If she sees them outdoors she barks wildly also. She backs up at the same time, does not move forward.

Outdoors she shows no fear of objects; she is already climbing over wooden pallets, jumbles of things I had planned to use for my puppy training. She does not seem sound sensitive.

Oh, the car---did you know that she can stand on two legs and poop? LOL We had her in her harness and seat belt but somehow she wiggled around, stood with front paws on the back seat and pooped. That, after we waited for twenty minutes waiting for pee and poop before getting into the car this morning, then a mile down the road and viola, poops. It was her first bowel movement since we have had her. So, a little cleanup, harness adjustment and on our way again. She was surprisingly good for a two and a half hour trip, stops along the way to get her out, relax a little, back in the car, repeat. She vomited a little once, just foam so next time we will give her some ginger snaps ahead of time. When I had to go into the doc office, Akula said she peed OK and never barked or growled at passers by. She looked but just snuffled, Akula attempted to distract her. No plans for that long a trip but I want to put her in the car daily, even if just to sit in the driveway and focus, relax, then back to the house.

Currently the plan is to leave her in the bedroom with her crate; she will not be off lead for a long, long time. We will work slowly on just charging the mark whenever she makes eye contact. I have no clue as to how long this will take. We have the lead connected to a harness, not a collar and we are not giving her any leash corrections, tugs.

So, a few questions are: If we keep her separate from my dogs for a week or longer and we see some progress, can we put her in an X pen in the kitchen so she has to get used to the daily flow of life? My dogs are already ignoring her barking and whining from the next room, I am not worried about them. I am worried about her reactions to them. Will she likely settle faster by seeing them more (and even me in my chair) when in the X pen? I am betting that her reactions will be general spasmodic behaviour, uncontrollable barking and probable banging on the panels of the pen. I do know to only treat when she is quiet, making eye contact.

If we need to keep her in her own room for longer than we hope, what are we looking to see when she can be taken outside to work on engagement, burn negative energy? My fear is that boredom will affect her negatively while in her crate or even playing with Akula in just the room.

The dog yard is connected to the chicken pens so that will be a large distraction. Just plan on working elsewhere on the property? I know it is unfair to try to correct her for barking at the birds when she has fear issues simultaneously.

She luckily has not been vaccinated, not even distemper but that, parvo and lepto are prevalent in our county. Also by law she will need rabies vaccine. Please tell me the order of what you think she will need and which ones. My vet I think will do as I insist.

Any other suggestions will be welcome of course. Any questions, ask away. An eight or nine week old puppy I can understand! This will be a challenge.

Thanks in advance for everyone’s help.

Respectfully,
ken

P.S. How do I add a photo?


Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/30/2011 08:33 PM)
Edit reason: paragraphs!!! ;-)

Ken,

Welcome to the forum!

Lots of info to try and digest, but I'll put in a few words...

I personally would focus on one thing at a time with this gal. Get her used to you and your wheelchair and very confident, not flinching, etc... before adding two new dogs to the mix. I'd also want a bit of a relationship developed between before adding more dogs - she doesn't know or trust you guys yet so why rush this part?? I wouldn't force the issue - she is BRAND new to your home and has a lot of adjustments to make.

Can you give any more info on the food situation? What was the horrid food and do you know if she was having issues with it as well?

I wouldn't even be THINKING of an ecollar yet in regard to the chickens - I know you don't mean anytime soon, but there is a lot to be learned about this gal before adding that to the mix, imho.

To add a pic: First upload it to a free site such as Photobucket. The picture will be assigned a link code. Then you'll go to My Stuff in the grey bar toward the top of the page and then to My Preferences and toward the bottom of that page will be a space to cut and paste that code.

Again, welcome.

First off, welcome!!

Sounds like Freya is very lucky to have had you respond to the ad!!

I'd back off a bit for now. Her world has turned upside down and you're asking her to get used to an awful lot awfully quick. You want to keep things very low key while she's adjusting to the change. Give her a couple weeks of long leash walks and lots of down time where she can just sit back and absorb her new world. Don't ask her to interact with your dogs, chickens or cats. Just let her be. Don't worry about the boredom factor. You can give her kongs to help keep her busy.

As she feels comfortable with Akula, she can go ahead and start marker training with Freya. Just make sure you don't push her to far, too quick.

Yes, keep her away from the chickens. Quite possibly as you train her what to expect and how to focus on you instead of distractions (ie, chickens) they won't be as big of as issue as you think. But it is important not give her a chance to start obsessing over the chickens to prevent issues from starting.

BTW, I have 3 Border Collies - great dogs!!

I told you incorrectly: it is not on the My Preferences page under My Stuff it is in the My Profile page. You can put the link in the signature box. Hope this helps!

"We noticed today that she is spotting when she peed."

Is she intact?




"She will eventually need a remote collar but when?"

IMO, not even in the toolbox yet. You might well want this http://leerburg.com/318.htm for the very good info, but I wouldn't even assume that you're going to need an e-collar. At any rate, it's not in the immediate or even medium-range future (JMO).



The wheelchair: Are you ever out of it anywhere besides in your own bedroom? I ask this because I've worked with dogs and wheelchairs (desensitizing) and have had the best success starting with an empty wheelchair. (The fact that it's manual is probably in your favor in this particular situation. )

I'd probably show the dog the empty wheelchair regularly here, in the beginning, if you can.



"The method of treating that Ellis uses, “Yes” followed by a motion of the arm and hand to make the dog follow, increase drive only makes her flinch and crouch."

I'd be doing nothing at all but loading the marker right now.

Also, along with the terrific suggestions already offered, I'd really up the ante on charging the mark. I'd use a very high-value reward rather than kibble.

I'd also give her many days of calm, no-expectation settling in.



eta

"Don't ask her to interact with your dogs, chickens or cats. "

HUGE ditto.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/30/2011 08:48 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Thank you all so far.
Yes, she is intact, she has never been to a vet according to the older kid who had her out. We have an appt. coming.
We are testing various treats right now. We were not using the kinbble as a marker treat, Akula was just allowing her to eat some out of her hand for a bit. She will not touch meat yet, is fearful of it. Using Red Barn and Zukes currently, she won't touch venison or steak.
The kibble, again according to a child, was from Wal Mart,probably Ole Roy. He said his mother complained that she was eating them out of house and home, she only weighs about thirty pounds so i doubt it. I do not mean she is deprived, just that a dog that size does not eat one out of house and home. Fifteen children do that.
I can lie down and let Akula take the chair into her room and let Freya snuffle, etc. After she is used to it, I'll have Akula sit in it. Sheesh, i feel left out!
Small home we have but we are trying to figure out a "route" that will allow my two dogs to stay seperated from her. They have never been together, she has just seen them while opening a door. AAt this time Freya is only in one room, with her crate, always on a lead.
More treat toys will be added as per your suggestions. I just know that herding dogs get bored, i know from my Aussie.
Arrgghh, puppies are soooooo much easier to me. I do have a strong gut feeling that Freya will turn out to be a great companion for Akula. I am now hoping that Raven will hang on a couple more years, he will be nearly fourteen by the time Freya comes around to life and i will be able to add a pup for me for a Service Dog. So far he still helps me daily but is now slowing a little, does not do everything quite so willingly as before.
ken

 Quote: Ken Kinyon

The kibble, again according to a child, was from Wal Mart,probably Ole Roy. He said his mother complained that she was eating them out of house and home, she only weighs about thirty pounds so i doubt it. I do not mean she is deprived, just that a dog that size does not eat one out of house and home. Fifteen children do that.

Well, my 2 y/o youngest should weigh about 35#, but it's hard to keep her at that weight. Gets a quality kibble She eats about about 3 cups a day now. Down from 3.5 - 4 cups. Don't ask me where she puts it.

But yeah, even if she's got a hefty appetite, that many kids would have her beat.

Also something working in your favor is with that many kids around she wasn't completely isolated from human interaction even if she was pretty neglected otherwise.

You mentioned a couple of times that she is vomiting and might not have much appetite. I probably would see if that would straighten out before giving her vaccines.
I would vaccinate her (there are lots of opinions about this) with a killed product,
DHLP-Parvo, if she were mine. I'd wait a few weeks and then give her a rabies vaccination. Some people would boost the DHLP-Parvo, it should be boosted 3 wks after the first injection for good protection. (Some would argue that a dog who reaches maturity has probably developed some immunity already, therefore a booster is not necessary. ) I would not vaccinate a sick dog, and I would not give the DHLP-Parvo and the Rabies vaccine on the same day unless I absolutely had to.
I would take a stool sample to the veterinarian and deworm her accordingly.
Check her for fleas too-

Hi Mara,
We have some high quality kibble, i rotate foods every day with my other two, raw with a variety of kibble so i have it here now. She just needs to acclimate to it i assume. What i have is more nutrient rich than Ole Roy so we will need to watch for upset. She has only been here 48 hrs so the only bowel movement she has had was in the car. No need to get her into the car again for a while aside from a short trip to the vet so it will be better to get a schedule going with her, we are going to keep a log, food to elimination times. Right now she doesn't have a clue that the walk to that specific area means poop, pee, no play.
Raven the Aussie weighs 50lbs and gets two cups in a day and a half pound of meat/bones 2x on meat days. Any more than that and he balloons up. Hauk is close 32" at the whithers but i like to keep him in the 90 some pound range and he gets only three to four cups, about 2 2/3 lbs meat on meat days.
Freya has short legs at this point so not really a size of a BC or Aussie, sort of a medium Sheltie. I'll just do the rib feel daily to adjust.
We will begin the lone wheelchair routine tomorrow. I need a nice nap anyway! LOL
Is it OK to give updates on a forum? Better topic to post under?
ken