I have a pretty generic question for anyone experienced in raising puppies for PP or PSD.

Is a sharp puppy likely to grow up to be a dog with a low avoidance threshold?

For example, I have a bouvier pup just under 6 months old. He is very quick to fire up on any strangers (barking and growling)for approaching our property, or even doing anything that he percieves as not normal.

What I have noticed is that most puppies that are "sharp" are the same ones that are more easily startled by loud noises, surprises...

So am I safe to correlate sharp behaviour as a pup to weak nerves?

My pup is easy to startle, but he always reacts to that fear with aggression. Tonight a friend of mine (my pup had never met him)came to my house after dark, and my pup ran up to withing 4 feet of him and barked and growled for close to 5 minutes. Obviously my pup would run if threatened due to his age (I wouldn't even consider letting this happen, no worries...).

My puppy's behaviour seems to be fairly extreme, he's been "sharp" since I got him at 9 weeks. Is he more likely to grow up to be a spook fear biter, or will his distrust of people lend itself well to his hopeful future as a security dog?

This has been tossed around many times. A sharp dog is a dog that is quick to react with aggrression. It may or may not be from weak nerves. That's hard to determine. I would lean towards this being a dog that will be a fear bitere if it isn't controlled, especially when you said it's been since 9wks old. Smarter people than me here with advice though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the response. Because this is (or at least was) supposed to be a work dog, I don't mind a dog that doesn't like anybody, I'm willing to take on the responsibility of a dog that must be controlled 100% of the time. That being said, if this dog is gonna take off at the first sign of serious pressure, there isn't much point in continuing bite training with him.

Simon,
Your puppy definely has a low threshold for defensive behavior. How is he away from home or the vehicle? How does he do with different surfaces and loud or unusual noises? His nerves are probably less than ideal, but he might do fairly well as an adult. He will likely not be a social dog and will have a distrust of everyone outside of his pack. His defensiveness is the result of him perceiving others as a threat, so his aggression is based on a degree of insecurity. But he is also very young, so how you manage his development will be a factor to a degree in how he looks as an adult. If you can build up his confidence in the bitework and get him to work more comfortably in prey, he can relax a little in the protection work. You might start teaching him to sit and be calm when someone approaches and you have him on leash. I wouldn't be heavy handed with him and focus on correcting disobedience rather than aggression for now. At least your pup held his ground. Think carefully about how you manage this issue. He will likely be a dog that you will have to supervise on leash around others at all times.

He is definitely more aggressive at home, but he will still bark out and about. He ignores most people, it's only that every once in a while he decides he doesn't like someone.

He's fine on all surfaces, always has been. Loud noises will certainly startle him, but he recovers quickly.

Normally I would look at a pup that barks and growls so much to be a bag of nerves. The part that has me confused is that he really does seem to hold his ground (obviously I won't be able to test that theory for quite a while).

He is very dog dominant, but very neutral to most people. The only time you see him really try to dominate people is if a friend or family member starts wrestling around with me, he's very quick to try and knock them down and stand over them.

Again, thank you so much for responding, I need to know if this dog is likely too dangerous to do bitework with. Thanks to some of the board members, his prey drive has really improved (Will, check your PM's).

Tonight a friend of mine (my pup had never met him)came to my house after dark, and my pup ran up to withing 4 feet of him and barked and growled for close to 5 minutes. What were you doing during this 5 minutes?

Puppies go thru alot of growth and fear stages that we can help them thru (or not). I realize that you don't want him to LOVE everyone, but is your goal for him to not to allow anyone ever to visit your home? I wouldn't mind my pup reacting when a stranger suddenly appeared, but if it was a friend I wanted in the house, not sure 5 minutes of barking/growling would have been what I'd want my pups to do.

And from what I have been reading, it doesn't seem that 'fear' is the best basis for a protection dog. So wouldn't it make sense to socialize the pup to the extent that they would be much more comfortable around new and strange things/people? Seems to me that a confident dog would be more likely to make the right decision in a protection situation, rather than a fearful dog.

Fron another place here on leerburg http://www.leerburg.com/qapropup.htm#cane

A solid nerved dog makes the best protection dog but they are also not quick to alert because they are not worried about strange noises and sounds. and

The thing to watch is how your dog reacts to strangers once they attempt to warm up to him. We want to see a dog that will forgive and forget. If the dog continues to try and run from strangers and will not warm up to them - I think you may have a problem. I recommend that you get him out for as many walks as possible. Take him to places where there are a lot of people. Bring along some cheap hot dogs (cut into very small pieces). See if he will take pieces of hot dogs from strangers.
I know some people that think the way to get the best protection dog is by isolating them so they KNOW their dog doesn't love everyone and think they are all good people. But what they have instead ended up with is a dog that was not allowed to develop and mature properly in it's social aspects so is unable to deal with normal situations as 'normal' and figure out what is NOT normal at all.

Just wanted to emphasize that I have socialized the hell out of this pup. He has gone everywhere with me since 9 weeks old.

As far as letting him bark for 5 minutes, I've essentially been acting neutral whenever he shows aggression. Not sure if this is the right thing to do, but I don't want to screw him up, and figured this might be the safest bet. The only time I will correct this is the odd time if he barks at a child.

Ideally I would love a dog that was great and social until I told him not to be. With this pup, that is obviously not in the cards.

I understand the difference between a sharp dog and a dog with weak nerves. I guess my question is: If the sharpness appears before maturity, is it likely to also be a dog with a low avoidance threshold? Has anyone had any success with puppies like this by building up the confidence later on through bitwork?

Simon,
Your dog doesn't sound like a nerve bag. Are you sure he is really dominant, or is he just being protective. If he is truly dominant, he will challenge your position. The problem with a defensive dog is that when they perceive a threat, they have a choice to either fight or flee. If your dog learns he can fight and win and move forward with his aggression, that is desireable. The downside is that if he really gets stressed or pushed, he might fold and flee. He is too young at this point to know, but you can be pretty certain he is a defensive dog. If he starts getting really aggressive in certain situations, try to keep him away from those type of situations and provide more situations where you can build confidence and his comfort level. I don't see why you can't do protection work with the dog, but I would keep things in prey for now and realize you have a higher degree of responsibility with a defensive dog. Work toward teaching him to be on a tieout while someone walks by in a neutral fashion without the dog lighting up. Keep socializing him.

Can anyone help with what Simon should be doing after the dog has started up with the barking, but the person being barked at is a friend and is to be allowed on the property?

I would think he needs to step in, greet the person to show he's ok, and then have the dog quiet down. Guess show some guidance to a young pup who doesn't yet have the skills to work out friend from foe. BUT, that may be wrong.

One thing would be to practice with different people and different locations, having someone walk up to Simon with his dog at heel and shaking hands with him. The dog should learn that he can sit calmly while someone approaches in a normal fashion to greet the handler. I would start this away from home to remove any element of territorial aggression. If you have to correct the dog, correct him for not sitting, not for the aggression. It is likely that if he sits, he will not be lit up and barking. If you have to, have the person approach and stop several feet away, get the dog to sit calmly at heel, praise him, and have the person come a little closer each time.
You should get to the point that you can tie the dog out, go out of sight and have someone walk by the dog in a neutral manner without the dog lighting up. Be patient and take your time with this training as your pup is very young.