Hi All

We recently adopted a 1.5 y/o Jack Russel / Mini Pincher mix. We got the Pack Structure DVD and have been working with the groundwork crate training. He is pretty good in the house but has separation issues and shows a lot of dominant behaviors.

We interviewed a behavior specialist today to see if he might be a good match for assisting us with him.

The guy had a very hard edge and put us off. He did have a lot of ideas of working with dominant dogs - mainly zero tolerance - we must always ensure we are in pack lead position in everything we do. That seemed in line with what we've read here and elsewhere - but we didn't like that he wanted to take the dog from us for 3-5 45 min sessions and "teach the dog" and then "teach us" how to handle the dog. I don't want someone else training my dog and I have to act exactly like them to get the dog to behave.

Out of curiosity, I was wondering about getting some other folks opinions on a couple things he said

1) his crate is upstairs - the trainer said that it is not good to leave the dog upstairs when we are downstairs because that is a dominant position where he will think he is above us (by being physically one floor above us in the house)

2) that leaving him crate is bad because it will make him more agressive (because he can't run around) and we should leave him out on our back terrace (city apartment) off leash & unattended instead so he can run around and tire himself out.

3) he said to feed at 7am or 7pm for best digestion (we have been feeding at 11am 1x a day)

On the crate and energy drain - we have been giving him pretty good exercise during day outside of crate time. We will have one big 45-90 min walk at noon and at 5pm another fast pace 25 min walk. (plus 2-3 bathroom breaks since we don't have a yard). Usually by night time he can't keep his head up.

Since we are new to all this - and since this is the first trainer we've talked to - wanted to hear what other think about these ideas.

many thanks!

Jason

 Quote:

but we didn't like that he wanted to take the dog from us for 3-5 45 min sessions and "teach the dog" and then "teach us" how to handle the dog. I don't want someone else training my dog and I have to act exactly like them to get the dog to behave.

You are right; you have no idea what this guy might do to your little guy. Much better to train him yourself.

 Quote:

1) his crate is upstairs - the trainer said that it is not good to leave the dog upstairs when we are downstairs because that is a dominant position where he will think he is above us (by being physically one floor above us in the house)

hmmm, that's about the most asinine thing I've ever heard...

 Quote:

2) that leaving him crate is bad because it will make him more agressive (because he can't run around) and we should leave him out on our back terrace (city apartment) off leash & unattended instead so he can run around and tire himself out.

not quite as asinine as the first comment, but pretty close.

Your instincts are right; run from this guy as fast as you can.

Can you outline the problems that you are having with your dog? Describe the behaviors that you see and how you are dealing with them.
And, welcome!

I call BS on #1 and #2.

re #3. He's a trainer (and not a very smart one at that), not a nutritionist or a vet. Why is he giving advice on feeding? I feed my dogs twice a day--but many people feed adult dogs once a day and they are fine.

That said, feeding time is one of the key times of day that you get to "demonstrate leadership" (food comes from the leader...)

You could also use a good portion of the food and dole it out throughout the day as training treats--make the dog work for the food, which will also reinforce the "nothing in life is free" concept.

Welcome! you'll get lots of good advice here.

I'm going to second/third the opinion of BS being freely flung when this individual is in the room. You are wise to be hesitant; always trust your gut.

The Groundwork DVD is a good place to start with your new little guy. Are you having any specific issues/problems which caused you to contact a behaviorist, or are you just looking for training assistance?

Welcome to the forum! We'd love to see a pic of the new family member!

RUN!!!!!

There was nothing good in that "training" advice. Not a thing.

I second/third/fourth the votes cast above, and "Can you outline the problems that you are having with your dog? Describe the behaviors that you see and how you are dealing with them."

Kudos for recognizing BS and looking further!

PS

"he wanted to take the dog from us for 3-5 45 min sessions and "teach the dog" and then "teach us" how to handle the dog."

Never in a million years.



Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/18/2011 03:15 PM)
Edit reason: ps

We have a behavioral 'specialist' person like that around here. Calls herself the Anchorage Dog Whisperer. I think this hard-core dominance thing is trendy, and not beneficial. Personally, I think this can be done wrong, very wrong. It can ruin your relationship with your dog, especially if you aren't a real macho-dominant personality yourself. One size fits all, really doesn't work for dog training. YOU are the one who lives and works with the dog, not a trainer. And your dog is motivated to work for you (not the trainer).

Good instincts on this, Jason. Have you heard of NILIF? (nothing in life is free). It's a great method to focus the dog on you. Jack Russels are fun little confident balls of energy. You can do many fun dog-sports with these little guys.

I'm glad you found this forum. It is a great source of information, and from the sounds of it, you are already providing a lot of what your dog needs (exercise!). Ask away, I'm sure you'll get good advice.

What kind of dominant behaviors are you seeing? How long have you had your dog so far?

Thanks so much for all the quick and supportive responses - we really appreciate your advice and thoughts !

We are definitely going to look elsewhere and take some time to try working with him ourselves as well.

We have only had him for 3 weeks

The main behaviors that we are looking for help on are

- Separation Anxiety
We made the mistake of leaving him about 5 hours the first week and he chewed up a chunk of plastic off the bottom of his crate. We have since not left him alone (we work at home) and are going to work on small increments (advice here is welcome)

We actually have to board him this weekend so it will be tricky. The place we found is in the countryside and we had a long talk with the owner who unlike our trainer guy today - left us feeling very positive and reassured. It may set us back to leave him like this or maybe show him that we can leave and come back - we had a trip planned and could not back out so we are in it now...

- Lunging and barking at other dogs
When walking - he will get stiff and focused on some other dogs and start spinning and barking (Jack Russel jumps). We have been able to get him to sit and be calm (and keep distance) from some dogs - and to walk past others without too much fanfare - but it is not reliable.

When he meets other dogs - he is not agressive per se - he is more curious but also dominant where he tries to kangaroo jump up and sniff them or put his front paws on their head (which most respond to by growling or nipping at him)

- Lunging at people
We take every walk in the city and there are always tons of people all around. He can walk past all types, kids etc and not take much notice. Every so often - and it seems more like when we are on a street with no people except one other (usually a man) - and he will leap up in the air and lunge. He is on leash so he doesn't get far - and sometimes growls and spins around like a piñata. We have gotten better at anticipating when he might do this (ears go forward, gets more attentive etc) and have started distracting by making him sit and focus and then give treat - or sometimes give a side tug on the leash correction and another as the person gets closer. This has been effective but still not sure why he is lunging out?

Those are the main problems... otherwise we've been doing the groundwork so he spends a lot of time in the crate in the day. He can be very calm in the crate - if we are in the room with him (in office) and working - he will sit quietly or sleep. If we go downstairs (and he is still upstairs) - he may start whining. He'll either quit or if we go upstairs (and don't pay attention to him but just walk upstairs in a different room) he'll stop whining. As we learned from DVD's etc we never attend to him while he is whining - or we may make one No or Sshh type of correction (although not sure if that is reinforcing it or not)

When he is out of crate - we have him on leash and he can also be calm and lay on his dog bed in the room we are in. We are practicing some basic commands like sit and stay and he is doing them very well.

The other dominant stuff he does is kind of subtle - like not obeying commands (while looking away as if he hears us but chooses not to), trying to get under our legs to sit, trying to jump up on us, trying to get us to pet him (does not do that one so much since we ignore)

That's a lot of info but those are the basics !

As requested - here's two photos of our little man Stuardt

He's a handsome dude!

After only 3 weeks, everything is still pretty new. I'd continue to give it more time---the basics of what you're doing with him seem right-on to me.

The pushiness on his part simply requires an equal-or-greater amount of not giving in on your part. Make him EARN what he does get (the basic principle of "Nothing in Life is Free" training).

You want me to pet you? Sit first. Okay. Now I'll pet you.

You want to go through this door. Sit first. Okay, now you can go.

You want to get out of this crate? Sit first. No pushing on the door. Okay. Now you can get out.

The message to him is: the world is full of good things that all come from you...and all he has to do to get them is to "ask nicely."

(does he have something appropriate to chew on in the crate?)

Yes, after only three weeks, I pretty much agree with Tracy.

The desensitizing that might be needed will be way easier to assess when the dog actually has perceived that he has a solid pack and a dependable pack structure.

He doesn't really know yet, IMO, that he can trust the cues of his pack leader(s) for his reactions to other people and to strange dogs, for example, and to always be between him and them when needed. JMO!

Can you leave and come back after a couple hours prior to your trip (at the weekend sitter's place?)

This: "like not obeying commands (while looking away as if he hears us but chooses not to") sounds like the reaction I've seen from stressed dogs. I'd consider whether he's not really understanding what's expected (for example, maybe under distraction or in a different venue).

Are you marker training?

 Quote: connie sutherland

This: "like not obeying commands (while looking away as if he hears us but chooses not to") sounds like the reaction I've seen from stressed dogs. I'd consider whether he's not really understanding what's expected (for example, maybe under distraction or in a different venue).

That was what sprung to my mind as well. Reminds me of how my Kira would ignore me on the agility floor...took me quite awhile to figure out what was going on (am sure she thought I was a dense human - so true!)