I know this is bad b/c they digest differently and allow bacteria from the kibble to sit in the gut too long or something along those lines....I searched some old threads and got some good info but i need a more detailed explamation as to why this is bad b/c I need to explain it to someone else very thouroghly!

A great detailed explamation as to why this is bad would help me out a lot. Thanks a lot

Feel free to send me links to articles etc explaining this....need as much info as possible to this specific question.(I have read the article about raw feeding and the q/a section)

From what I understand (and I do not have any articles to back this up) is that Kibble takes longer to digest and it swells some in the digestive tract. A raw diet goes through the digestive tract much quicker. If I recall correctly, this is part of why dogs do not have as much to worry about as far as bacterial and parasite problems on a raw diet. The food passes through quick enough that they do not have time to cause harm. If you feed kibble at the same time, it can slow the digestive tract down, causing the raw meat to sit there longer.

I believe it is perfectly fine to feed raw and kibble if they are fed at separate times though (raw in the morning, kibble at night or vice versa). Just not in the same meal.

*Disclaimer - I am not an expert on raw feeding, but I do feed my own dogs raw and this is what I have learned as part of that process.

 Quote: Michael Bennett

.... A raw diet goes through the digestive tract much quicker. If I recall correctly, this is part of why dogs do not have as much to worry about as far as bacterial and parasite problems on a raw diet. .... If you feed kibble at the same time, it can slow the digestive tract down, causing the raw meat to sit there longer.

Yes.


http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=278889&Searchpage=1&Main=26399&Words=colonize+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post278889

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=12&Number=324814&Searchpage=1&Main=29476&Words=colonize+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post324814

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=290531&Searchpage=1&Main=27092&Words=colonize+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post290531

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=12&Number=242756&Searchpage=1&Main=23458&Words=colonize+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post242756

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=274539&Searchpage=1&Main=26067&Words=colonize+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post274539

The big problem with raw and kibble is the kibble's slowness of digestion.

Dog's stomach empties of kibble in 900 minutes (+/- 60); canned 420-480 minutes, fresh 240-360 minutes.

That speed of fresh food's transit (along with very caustic stomach acids) is what disallows food pathogens time to colonize and cause illness.

If you slow the fresh food down by combining it with kibble, thereby presenting any pathogens present with triple the colonizing time, you're doing major tinkering with the dog's big defenses against salmonella and the like.

I am using Orijen kibble and feeding a raw meal once a day. The kibble is going in one bite at a time, but sometimes there is a whole pouch of kibble getting used up on a walk (highly reactive dog, lots of training going on). Once they eat their raw meal at the end of the day (hungry dogs are focused on treats dogs), they don't get any kibble. But I wonder if I am putting them at risk because they have had kibble treats at midday and late in the afternoon? Hmmm.

I don't know.

I'd probably switch to a soft reward (similar to Simon & Huey's and others) because you mention a substantial amount (a whole pouch of kibble in the afternoon).

I may sound like a nut about this, and believe me, I do know that most people never see a problem.

But if the problem happens, as it has to at least two folks here, it's bad (or can be bad, I should say).

I would not combine them. But if I did, they would be 12 hours apart.

JMO. Again, I do know that zillions of dogs never experience a problem.

BTW, Dr. Betty mentioned serious rinsing of raw poultry -- yes. I won't use commercially ground beef raw, and I too rinse poultry thoroughly. Both are surface concerns.

Poultry processed the way almost all commercial poultry is is extremely likely to have surface pathogen-contamination. Rinsing can't give any guarantees, and it won't kill sick-making bugs, but it can mechanically remove a load of them (in the rinsing stream).



All JMO!

Connie is going to smack me on the noggin as I do feed raw and kibble in various combinations. Some days just 1 or the other, some days combined.

During puppy foundation and early training (OB + tracking) I would sometimes soak kibble in water, add ground beef and mush it all up, other times just use chicken necks or cut up breasts, whole quarters etc. Got lucky as dog never had a problem.

Many do, with never a problem.

The colitis that resulted from the combo (and an especially heavy pathogen load, I would imagine) in a couple of dogs here was so bad, as in "on her side in the pouring rain, projectile vomiting, unable to walk" and nearly a week in the hospital in each case, that the low probability of such a problem pretty much stopped being meaningful for me.

The thing that really struck me was the fact that the vet in each case diagnosed it. I can't even imagine how rarely such a bout would be diagnosed AND further attributed to kibble slowing the passage of the affected meat.

IME, raw feeding is often the named culprit for many maladies in the eyes of many vets (unfortunately). Just "raw feeding made the dog sick; bad bad owner."

I have to wonder how many times the actual culprit is less the contaminated food and more an unnatural tinkering with the dog's mechanisms for dealing with such contamination.

Slowing the passage of raw and/or diluting or neutralizing the caustic stomach acids -- the dog's two-prong weapon against food-borne pathogens -- well, I believe that we can avoid both by not mixing kibble with raw, not allowing a lot of water to be consumed right before or right after a raw meal (of course, this one is also a bloat-determent measure), and not continuing with raw when a dog needs an antacid protocol for whatever reason.

But this is certainly an individual decision. My opinion isn't universal by any means, and there's no thought in my mind that owners who disagree and mix the two are somehow uncaring or uninformed. MANY owners do combine them, and MANY dogs are just fine.



I might smack you on the noggin anyway, though, just to stay in practice.

I have to wonder if this might be why Jethro and Skipper sometimes have bouts of diarrhoea when there hasn't been any real change in their diet except I might have upped the treats because we are doing some rapid-fire training. I'm going to switch to homemade meat treats and phase out the kibble completely.

Thanks guys thats just what I needed I knew all u smartie pants could word it much better than I could!

Jenny, orijen kibble tends to give lots of dogs diarreah. Used to work at a pet store and it was a common complaint with the food. also Evo red meat was another doozy for loose poops

 Quote: Cat Richter

Jenny, orijen kibble tends to give lots of dogs diarreah. Used to work at a pet store and it was a common complaint with the food. also Evo red meat was another doozy for loose poops

Some dogs cannot tolerate the high protein % in Orijen, and other high protein, grain free foods. Others have no problem. We have very nice solid logs over here on Orijen.