Regarding the source of your dog, and its possible relationship to the behavior you're seeing, I offer the following excerpt from the breeder's website without comment, leaving that to older and wiser people on this board:

"Showable" quality dogs (not that you have to show him) will be without physical shortcomings, i.e., excessively long hair, one testicle, level or undershot bite, flat croup, high tail setting or too low, etc., etc. (Even though we try for perfection, nothing in this world is perfect and without blemishes, but our German Shepherds are as close to perfect as one can get.)

"Pet" quality dogs are suitable for companionship and protection, Obedience Trials, and Schutzhund work, but not for Conformation Shows, or for Breeding. Temperament (the mind of our dogs) does not differentiate between "Pet" or "Show" quality - every dog we sell has a good mind and sound temperament.

Your pup is being very submissive with the other puppies - does he have any reason to be timid with them? Are they older, heavier, play rougher, have any ganged up on him and given him a bad experience? Does he live with another dog that dominates him? It's good he's found one puppy that he can play with without fear. I wouldn't continue to force him into this free play session if it continues to frighten him. Better that he has positive experiences, even if they are just one on one. Let him play with the one pup he gets along with, and you might try seeing if someone with a more laid back or submissive pup will allow yours to play with him by themselves also, so he can have good experiences with more than one pup. Sometimes one on one they do better.

Another question is how big are the pups in this puppy k? I have seen some allow puppies in wildly variant developmental stages.

Old enough to gang up and chase the smaller ones and too many dogs to be too much; I agree - maybe you and the lab can get together for some one on one. Can the class leader break down the "crowd" into smaller evenly matched groups?

Thanks Lee... there are only two in the class that are bigger than Apollo, and they tend to run around and play like crazy. Three of them were chasing Apollo last week, so that might have spooked him a bit. I just made sure he knew where I was in the room, sitting on the side, so he wouldn't feel like he was abandoned there. If he comes over to me to sit instead of playing, I just ignore him and try to play with the other puppies myself.

After all, who could resist playing with a room full of puppies! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll be sure to see if he'll play with a couple of the more laid back puppies and bring a big bag of his favorite treats next week to ensure that the experience remains full of fun and good things.

I'll need older and wiser minds to interpret Dave's post for me... bascially that says they offer different 'categories' of dogs based on phsyical attributes, and that there is no difference in tempermant or mindset, no matter what 'category' he falls into. He's actually picture-perfect, amazing features and coat, and is 'showable'. I don't think I ever would though, it just doesn't look like all that sitting and prodding would be fun for either one of us... we just like to play! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Lee Reicheld

Nancy - that's pretty much the case right there. The class can't be broken down into smaller groups since there are no dividers or partitions in the building... just one big square room. I wish they could though, he does great when the class is broken up into three groups (about 6-7 dogs in each) to do specific exercises.

His next ob classes will only consist of 5-7 dogs though, so hopefully he'll get used to it and handle that one better.

Thanks!

-Lee Reicheld

Three groups with 6-7 dogs in each group???? Are you saying there's 20 puppies? If so, definitely not for the faint of heart! Don't go early if there is no way to separate your pup and another. See if you can go outside with them if there's an enclosed area, or put them in an office/bathroom, or stay late and let them play alone later.

I think Dave's saying the breeders are promising that their pups will all have sound temperaments, and this timidity with other pups is not desirable, so the breeders should perhaps share some responsibility in this.

Got ya... thanks!

Yes, I believe there are 18 pups (including Apollo) in this class. There are several points that I don't agree with the instructors on, so I won't be attending this particular school for Apollo's advanced training (we're only in this one to expose him to other people and pups...) We only have three more sessions left, so I will try to use those to get Apollo to be able to spend some time with the pups in the corner, or outside.

As far as his temperament goes, I just think he needs a bit more exposure. He's amazing in every other situation so far. For example, the neighbors across the street just started building an addition onto their house (would have to be right when I get a new pup... grrr.) and for the first two days Apollo would jump at every loud noise and nail gun that went off. After the first two days, we were back out in thte front yard playing with his tug and doing ob commands, even during the loudest saws and crashes... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So I'm pretty content with his ability to acclimate to new stimuli. Hopefully this will appear in his reaction to all the pups during the next few sessions.

Here's a related question... my cousin has two Siberian Huskies (all shots current, etc.) that are 1.5 years old and 7 years old. Do you think it would be good for me to bring Apollo over there as much as possible (3-4 times per week) or just occasionally? I thought that might help him get used to spending time with more than just one other dog (passing on the street, etc.).

Oh, and at home, it's just me and Apollo now...

http://www.leerburg.com/ubb//ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=72;t=000024

Thanks again.

-Lee Reicheld

Too many pups; I agree.

I have a friend who taught puppy-k ( I would go to her for advice but she does not EVER EVER EVER believe in correction and...so we dont completely see eye to eye) any way she USED to let that many puppies run free but it was just tooooo overwhelming for a number of them and too hard to supervise with most owners in lala land not knowing when to step in -- my own older dog was one of those "timid ones" who would dive under a chair so I pulled him out at play time. Now the new pup would probably have everyone else under a chair <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now only the youngest run free in a large x-pen and the others socialize on lead.

my cousin has two Siberian Huskies (all shots current, etc.) that are 1.5 years old and 7 years old. Do you think it would be good for me to bring Apollo over there as much as possible

Totally depends on how the pup and the huskies get along. I'm gonna guess the huskies will knock the crap out of the pup without meaning to and scare the heck out of it, but I might be wrong. It's only good to be around other dogs if it's a POSITIVE experience - bad experience is worse than none.

Thanks Lee... I'll give it a shot with just one of the huskies and Apollo in the back yard, both on leashes first. We'll go from there.

-Lee Reicheld