I just tried to post, and ended up screwing up big time, and lost it all. Will try again...

Ruger, my 7.5 month GSD puppy, is having a rough go of it. He has always had puddin' poops, but he's had several bouts of diarrhea now, unrelated to worms or giardia, or anything like that. I think more often than not, it's been stress related. So we do boiled chicken and rice, and any meds we get from the vet to calm his system, and then work him back on to his normal food again. The only times I have seen solid poos from him are the first part of the first poo of the morning, and when he has been on the boiled chicken and rice, after the diarrhea goes away. Otherwise, his food shoots right out in a messy pile of sludge. In addition to the constant puddin'poos, he vomits on a regular basis before eating breakfast in the morning. Normally, he gets 2 meals a day, and it doesn't seem to matter how late I feed him dinner, he's vomiting before breakfast the next morning anyway. (Though not every day)

Not knowing what has caused all this, I've been reluctant to change his food. However, now we are going to try some sensitive food for him. I have one right now, but don't know what foods are most highly recommended for sensitive dogs. The vet thinks this might help, considering he DOES go solid on the boiled chicken and rice. However, he mentioned the dreaded Pancreatic Enzyme Insufficiency, which would require medication the rest of his life. And he also mentioned continuing on the boiled chicken and rice, which would be VERY expensive, at least the way I have found chicken breast, and on top of that, he would require supplements.

So...what foods are best for a sensitive dog? If raw, is there a special plan I have to follow for a sensitive dog? Is it a 100% rule that an enzyme problem always requires medication for the rest of his life? And finally...is it even possible that such a problem can be completely unheard of from a breeder, and I'm the one and only person that has ever had this problem with one of her pups?

I'm sure I missed something...my first effort was longer. LOL Any help and input is most appreciated. I've done alot of research, but I admit I'm a little overwhelmed and confused right now...and yes, disappointed that I didn't get a "normal" puppy. But I just hope that I can find a way to help him without having to starve my family in the process.
Thanks!
Laurie Hill

What are you feeding him? Have you tried different foods?

And why do you think it is stress-related?

My Grace came home from the breeder at 8 weeks with diarrhea. It was a sign of things to come. For the first 4 years of her life, I struggled to keep weight on her and she would go through phases where she would drop pounds, go off her food, have gas/diarrhea, etc. I truly just thought she was a picky eater, maybe with food allergies.

Also, if you are feeding him primarily chicken and rice, it is lacking calcium which is bad for his growth and it is also all soft with nothing to firm up his poop...

Over time, it got progressively worse until we had her tested for EPI and SIBO (Small Intestine Bacterial Overgrowth). Sure enough she does have mild EPI and she had a case of SIBO that took months to clear up. All those times that she went through a phase, it was probably SIBO.

I got her under control with changing to a raw diet and incorporating various supplements (B-Naturals Immune Blend, Digestion Blend, Green Blend, and Fish Oil/Vitamin E). She does not require prescription enzymes, as raw is easier for her to digest. I do feed bones that are ground in, rather than whole, for easier digestion.

One thing I do wish is that I had switched her to raw years ago. She has eaten raw for five years very successfully.

With that said, she is an expensive dog. I will not lie! But she is truly the best dog I have ever had...one in a million

Some of my favorite info on EPI:
http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjepi.html

A fecal has ruled out whipworm, hookworm, giardia,coccidia?
Has the dog been dewormed with a serious product like 3 days of Panacur? And
I'm sure the dog has had 10 days of Flagyl during one of these episodes?

 Quote: betty landercasp

A fecal has ruled out whipworm, hookworm, giardia,coccidia?
Has the dog been dewormed with a serious product like 3 days of Panacur? And
I'm sure the dog has had 10 days of Flagyl during one of these episodes?

Also, what giardia test was done?

I know you are focused on a sensitive GI system, but truly, this isn't casually dismissed: "but he's had several bouts of diarrhea now, unrelated to worms or giardia, or anything like that."

Giardia is not only tricky to diagnose, with loads of false negatives unless a very specific protocol is followed, but it recurs under stress.

ETA
" .... he DOES go solid on the boiled chicken and rice."

But for how long? I'm thinking back over the threads we've had here where giardia was ruled out because of the periods of log poops that seemed to coincide with a certain food but turned out to be only coincidence.

My plan right now would probably be two-prong. I'd probably begin a chicken/rice protocol with calcium (this age dog should not be on a calcium-unbalanced diet for any length of time). The calcium will allow you to keep the dog on the diet for long enough to actually determine that the pudding was food-related and can be food-modified.

When (if) I had a history of consistent log poops (I mean many days with no pudding at all), I would slowly and gradually swap out the chicken-rice with a real food (not a "prescription" diet) and watch. This would give me guidance as to whether I needed to start ruling out giardia and other parasites.

What is the dog eating right now?

If you want to trial the food in this manner, you will want calcium (eggshells will be fine) and you'll have to get the approximate weight of the food (as fed) per day so we can tell you the amount of calcium needed to balance it.

Of course, this isn't fast enough if the dog is having water-poop.

Also, I would like to hear about the morning vomit. Is it bile-vomit or actual food vomitus?

Do you have fish oil and E for the dog?


All JMO, of course.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/18/2011 07:46 PM)
Edit reason: eta

We started him with Kirkland (Costco) food, which is what the breeder was feeding. Through research, we're starting to learn about raw...just STARTING to learn though. From what I see, this would probably be the best option for him, and MAY be the only way we can avoid medication for the rest of his life, if it is a sensitivity or mild enzyme issue. However, before this, I bought a bag of Natural Balance limited ingredient diet, but he's still playing around with loose stools, so I am adding it VERY slowly. I have yet to be at the point with that particular food to see if it really helps him or not. In the mean time, I will be definitely looking into good sources of raw for him, and whatever would be best for his specific needs.

I said I suspected stress-related because all of his worst diarrhea episodes have come at times of big changes for him, which he really seems affected by...behaviorally AND physically. But sadly, I can't ask him how he's feeling about life when things happen. :-) Or, I can ASK, but don't understand his answer. :-D

Wow, I'm truly "dumb" on all this. I thought we shouldn't worm him unless a test came up positive, so, "no" on that question. They said the fecal ruled out everything listed above, giardia was included in the fecal flotation. Flagyl, I am honestly not sure. I just got the "all clear", and sort of moved on to the next possibility, but from what you say, it still could be that.

Right now, he is on the chicken and rice, with small amounts of Natural Balance kibble. I started today upping the quantity again on the total amount of food, but giving it in 4, maybe 5 meals instead of just 2. So far, he's not doing much pooping, but it's not solid, either. He just did a rather mushy one. Incidentally, this time the pumpkin, which had worked to get him solid before, did not work at all. (I think I forgot that part earlier)

The morning vomit is just bile. I thought feeding him later at night would help that, but that's not always true for him. Of course, considering what he's going through, I guess that should not surprise me.

No fish oil and E yet.

You are correct that now is not the time to start raw (and I am a huge proponent of raw).

If you answer all the questions posted, I feel pretty confident that we can at least get you to the point of knowing whether the diarrhea can be remedied with food.

The methodical approach I outlined is far superior to scattershot fixes, because you will be able to check off every possibility, one by one. Where you are now, you really don't know whether this is parasite-related, illness-related, or simply sensitive-GI-related. Since he has experienced poop success with chicken/rice, that would be my starting point. As soon as I saw any diarrhea recurrence, I'd start checking off the tests that Betty outlined (starting with the simplest and least expensive tests).

"any meds we get from the vet to calm his system" .... details, and how long the dog was on each one.

Sorry...he's only been solid on the chicken and rice till he transitions back to kibble. However, THIS time, he's got smaller poos, but they are still not solid. I started giving him kibble again, only because I felt like he needed the extra nutrition.

Seems like I really need to take him in again, and ask more questions.

Ugh, I have a terrible, terrible memory. I'm going to have to ask the office for records to tell you exactly what meds, etc. The last time, they told me to use Pepto, and the watery diarrhea subsided, but every other time it's been meds from them.

Again, though, it seems I need another appointment to ask more questions. This is good...I'm learning! :-)

Chicken and rice is adequate if calcium is added.

How long was he having solid poop on chicken and rice?

Was it days, weeks, or what?

When you added back kibble, at what point did the diarrhea re-start? Half and half, or 10% kibble, or what?

These might not be questions you can answer now (since most of us don't keep logs .. haha ... of the dog's exact diet and poop), but you may want to re-start the chicken and rice diet (with calcium) to get these answers. If so, post back with the weight of a day's food and I'll give you the crushed-eggshell amount you need to add.

Then the addition of kibble would be extremely gradual, not upping each step until the poop was seen from the last step.