I hope you can answer my rather tedious question. I am sure you have heard this question many times.


My Dobe girl Helga LOVES to bite. I even tried out a funky video that I have posted in the videos section. I am sure if I were living in the US , I could make her participate in some form of biting sport. Even though she loves to bite, she is a super soft, super submissive, super friendly dog. She sees no difference between me and strangers and will solicit petting from any one.

My other native breed dog Bommi, has no interest in the tug. She has never played tug. Has zero ball drive, however she loves to chase live prey. She has never bitten any one. But has a natural weariness of strangers. It does not mean that she will run out and bite strangers , but she does not want them closing in on us too much. However she is very obedient and will lay down and ignore if I ask her to. She has growled at strangers who were stupid enough to try to pet her during their first meeting. I am sure she would have bitten them if they had insisted.I assume that because she does not back away from the approaching person. She stands there and growls even if they are very close.


If I was walking late at night with cash in my pocket, I would feel much safer with Bommi than with Helga. This is just my gut feel.

However all the literature on protection dogs speak of prey drive and grip and sociability and all that.

For a common man like me, I don't care if my dog bites the attacker with full mouth or front mouth. Or if it shifts grip or not. In a real life situation, it is important for me to have a feel for my dog's natural instinct rather than my confidence to orchestrate some behaviour that I have trained. No points are awarded for the heeling style when you walk back from the ATM late night.

So where does all this Grip, sociability etc come into play?

I would guess that a dog that is truly a protection dog is not walking along , motivated, high strung , "just looking for someone to bite". I think the dog has to be very calm and cool and not be excitable and rather indifferent.

I would assume that a dog will be in a different state of mind when play fighting for a sleeve or bite suit and will be in a different state of mind when preventing a physical assault on itself or it's owner.

Most important of all, I would also assume that 99.99% of the time the protection dogs work as a "preventive measure" . i.e. making itself and it's owner a less inviting target. For this to work, the dog should NOT be sociable. Especially if the owner is not there or incapable of commanding.

So, by my logic a very sociable dog like helga cannot be even a poor protection dog in the true sense.

No matter how much she likes to chase or bite. It is just that she lacks the mind set to confront.

Therefore it leads me to conclude that true guard dogs should not be very sociable. Is this conclusion wrong?

Thanks for taking the time to read my question.

Will Rambeau has often posted extensively on this very topic. I think he has made several those posts into 'stickies', that is they are flagged and posted to the top of the relevant forums.

...

Found them in the 'Protection' grouping,
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/124/page/1

Also, I moved this into the PPD area.

I could not see where Ram's question was answered, only a "made" PPD should act should you go to collect it from the vendor who is selling it.
I am interested in this question too, and how it relates or doesn't relate to territoriality.

Ram, did you read this?

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/279075/page/1#Post279075

Mam, I have read that. It has a lot of good information. But I would like my question answered about the mindset of a PPD.

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

Mam, I have read that. It has a lot of good information. But I would like my question answered about the mindset of a PPD.

Do you mean this question?

"Therefore it leads me to conclude that true guard dogs should not be very sociable. Is this conclusion wrong?"

Now that the thread is bumped, I betcha someone qualified to answer (not me) will see it.

After working serious PPD's for over 20 years, I have found that most PPDs that will actually do the work at the critical moment are not social by nature.

There's a rare exception to that rule, but I've seen that most owners that claim that they have a serious PPD that's also social are at best guessing, and at worst they're usually in denial.

Will Rambeau>> Thank you for your kind answer. when people said that PPDs should be social and all that, it did not make much sense to me.


When I see bommi and helga looking at a new person, I can feel whats going in their minds.


Sir, also I had an other question in the long winded post of mine.

Is there a difference in mind set when the dog is biting for the sleeve and a dog is biting because it is fighting an assailant?

Does the prey drive, grip and all that really matter in a true PPD? (assuming the perp is not wearing a bite suit, what is the difference between 10 bite and shakes all over and a firm chomp down and grip?)

Here's what I feel about prey drive - it makes *training* a PPD much easier, but it shouldn't be part of the dogs response to a critical event, the dog will be in defense drive for that.

While grip makes training easier, I've known excellent PPDs that had a chewy grip ( and from a damage standpoint, a dog that is constantly rebiting up and down a limb is a pain for a perp to deal with ).

So while grip and prey drive are needed for a good sport dog, a dog can be a PPD without these ( although their training would be much easier if those were present ).