Hi

I'm new to Schutzhund, I became involved for 2 reasons, one to get acquainted with seasoned experienced and succesful trainers - and two, to possibly try to title one or 2 of my dogs in the future. So please, I am not trying to start an argument I am trying to understand. And I will be first to admit my nieve-atty (sp ROTFL) about all this.

I've seen the meets on video, which is one thing that atrracted me to Sch. I attented my first local trial here the other day. I'm not sure I was too thrilled by what I saw. And perhaps I am mistaken, or misdirected. I watched several dogs work, and saw them scored.

The dog I (who is ignorant and new at this stuff) liked best, was a steady male GSD who's handler spoke the commands so quietly I could not hear - but Dog obeyed instantly, heeled attentively but without jumping about (the dog was clearly aware of both his handler and what went on around him) He bit when he was told, and "out" the second his handler's lips moved. Dog did everything right but failed to bark at the man in the blind. Though I was impressed with the dogs willingness, and his quick response to handlers commands, this dog scored very poorly. I dont get it, of the Teams (dog & human) I saw of the field that day, this pair was doing the best TEAM work.

On the other hand, I saw dogs who were (what I thought) quite crazy, dancing hystericly at heel, who's handlers had to shout or almost scream at them... but when "set" on the Decoy, Dog flew like a blur and hit very hard - however, dog was quite reluctant to "out" requiring several screamed commands - but these dogs scored very high?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what is being judged in Schutzund trial, or maybe some trials are different than others? My understanding was that the Schutzhund was to evaluate dog's working capabilities in a setting somewhat close to that of field work with police or security.
Now, maybe I am wrong (probably) if I am working with a dog, I need a PARTNER. A steady, reliable, responsive, aware, THINKING and happily interacting helper, who's also capable of helping aprehend a suspect (even armed, and regardless of force involved) and defending me should I be assaulted. I also need a dog I can recall if Dog makes an error, a dog that will "out" readily when suspect is subdued. I dont need to have all my attention focussed on controlling/restraining a hysterical bouncing nut-case (sorry).

It is entirely likely that I have missed the point of the Schutzhund sport. If so, I frankly apologise, and could someone someone suggest a different area of "dog qualification" for my dogs and me? I dont want to drop my local Sch organization, as I am grateful for the opportunity to learn from clearly skilled and experienced dog trainers. And I certainly dont want to stir up strife with my probably poorly informed opinion. However, I am looking alot differently at the notion of Titling my dogs, and ALOT differently at the SCH titles I see on pedigrees.

Somebody straighten me out!
Thanks in advance
Bobbie

Richard has a better way with words than me so I will defer to him to point out the good and bad of the sport I love so much. But I will suggest that you pick up the video 2001 Schutzhund USA National Championships.

Slowride,
I await with bated breath for answers to your question, since I've had the same ones for the last couple of years.

Though the sport requires a strong working drive, (which would have had the above mentioned dog doing a proper B&H), I suspect at least a large part of the answer is similar to the one for why conformation dogs all look the same: competitors present what judges reward.

If a flashy, maniac drive dog consistently wins over a slower, steadier worker, then over time the judge will likely not see anything but the flashy ones. IMHO of course....

Gee, Thanks (?) Vince,

Leave it to the only guy that doesn't do Schutzhund to defend it?

All Right, almost all trial work has some subjectivity. What you like isn't necessarily what the judge you are watching likes. There are some specific rules, but once they are met it becomes some what subjective. But the rules for the trial must be met. If the dog is required to do a bark and hold and it doesn't, that is going to count against it. With NAPD the dogs will take a zero for missing a call off, or not making a bite quickly enough.

As the years have gone by the focus has changed in dog sports. It used to be that sport was a step along the way to other things. There are many more people for whom sport is an end point, not a begining. As a result the character of the dogs has changed some, the attitude towards the sport has changed also. In some cases you will hear SchH people say they aren't really traing for bite work and they don't want their dogs to bite outside of the ring.

Having said all of that there are some other things to keep in mind. One is that SchH isn't the only dog sport. In the last few years there has been several new types of trails come along. There are at least 2 types of Ring Sports, PSA, NAPD, "tough Dog" compitions, and others. If SchH isn't your cup of tea, look at some of the others. SchH is probably the most heavily structured of the dog sports, the tough dog compitions are the least structured and the rest in the middle somewhere. Some of the sports are better suited for different breeds. Some are more prey based (SchH, Ring), others are more defense oriented (PSA, NAPD).

If you don't like one try another. With SchH talk to some Veteran competitors and see if you are missing something in the dog's routine. It sounds like some of it is that you prefer a more balanced dog, as opposed to the really high drive prey type dogs. Other sports are more suited for a more balanced drive dog. You will probably have to learn what they want in the other sports also. Another thing to keep in mind is that there are 2 ways to look at a trial. One is you are competeing against the other dogs and handlers. The other is that you are there to test your skills and your dog. With that attitude no matter what the score card says, you will know how you did and either be satisfied or not. And that is what really counts.

Without having seen this trial it is hard to comment on what you saw. But these are some possibilities. Perhaps with the team that looked steady to you, the dog had less drive and attitude. Typically the judges like a dog to have the appearance of enthusiasm about their work. Fast response means alot, although the accuracy should be there as well. The dog should perform all exercises quickly and with power. In the protection they want the same. My retired female gained some power as she matured, but when younger a strange helper or strange grounds would negatively affect her work. The dog must show strong calm grips, true guarding and must actually show a fight against the helper to get the best possible score. The dog should out on the first command. Perhaps the dog you saw went through the motions but had less drive/nerve strength and didn't really take on the fight. Also, as Richard said, different judges place higher value on different things. Some place more emphasis on drive, some on hardness, some on accuracy. This is true in anything judged. Like others said, continue talking, reading, watching. Any dogsport is very in depth and takes awhile to comprehend. Hope this helped a little.

Sue

Richard:

I purposely choose you because you are not biased on the sport and would give a pretty fair assessment of the pros and cons. I am too close to the sport for that. I will add one thing. You probably were a witness to the age old dilemma of wanting the highest drive dog and then when you get him you beat the hell out of him to stop doing what you originally bought him to do in the first place. It's a piece of cake to control a low drive dog or to make a high drive dog bite. The trick is to channel the drives of a high drive dog for ultimate control.

There is a Mal that I watch work around here sometimes. The hit command is given so quietly that you can barely hear it. If it is given too loud or forcefull the dog winds up so tight that it won't call off. It is a strange dog to watch work.

Vince??

Richard, if that was defending the sport I sure hope Vinnie doesn't ask you to trounce it some day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You knuckleheads. . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if slowride is compairing the Schutzhund trial to AKC style trials. The emphasis is different. Spirit is the word that pops into my head.

I'm not saying you didn't see some poor control or some crap trials, but if you were looking for one thing and saw another it may taint the whole experience.

Get a few tapes and look at some great routines(there is a big difference between the local scheduled trials and the Nationals), then consider that you just went to a local trial and that these folks are probably trying there best, in what is one of the toughest dog training disciplines in the world.

Later when you are out there at your first trial and your young dog does not out for the first time in months, for who knows what reason, lets see you not yell AAAUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSSS DAAAAMMMMMMMIIIT! about six times. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Don't discount Schutzhund as a stepping stone to other training goals either, there are still a number of us out there that train, in what I call, "realistic" ways so that you can move on to other things with your working dog. It is all about how you train. Schutzhund can be play time or it can be serious.

You might want to look at other clubs too.

Hi you all -

Thanks so much for the veritable avalanche of response. If nothing else, your input has confirmed that some of my guesses weren't too off base.

I'd rather guessed that in the group I visitted, "who's dog is the meanest" was sort of a fashion thing. And I have a feeling that in any protection or security competition there's gonna be that element. About the only thing I can do is avoid getting into the element while at the same time learning anything useful these folks can teach me.

Also, yes this was a small local meet. And some of the dogs I saw were probably just beginners. But also, I did get introduced to some folks who were clearly very experienced breeders and handlers, and of course their dogs showed it. And I guess with "excellence" is by nature it's a lonely at the top kind of thing.

I've come to the Schutzhund sport, from "the bushes" - I just love dogs and training them, in the past my mutts would work as helper/tool guard on construction jobsites, off lead all day (people and coming and going and noises and smells etc)... but this was with carefully selected REAL co-operative mutts. (so I'm validating that it takes little skill to handle an "easy dog"). I joined Sch. to learn the original (REAL) breeding criteria for German Shepherd Disposition (since I raise them). Also, I need some FORMAL education on dog training. My dogs always performed great at anything we worked on - but we'd look pretty sloppy in a show ring, and there is no place on a dogs AKC record for "Trained to find my kid when he wanders off outdoors" or "Hold someone with my pliers in his hand till I get there" and such what not.

It does appear that I've been somewhat mistaken in what "working dog" means - in my thinking, it meant "highly intelligent dog capable of working in concert with Human in any situation" which also means in pursuit and/or defense. So, no - for my GSD's AKC trial wouldn't sufficiently cover the traits I'd like to verify that my dogs have. My "problem" is that I feel it a VERY high priority that a dog trained for aprehension is absolutely under the control of it's handler ... geez, Ted, a mutt I'd trained to go after rabbits and whistle pigs - he'd drop one 50 yards away from me and come back. The first command. In his whole life he never failed. That's the quality I look for in my dogs, the principle (with regards to bite work) I was hoping that Schutzhund would develop and evaluate. (??) If there is another venue/method that would be better suited for validating stability and control as well as good "bite work" someone PLEASE point it out!

Reckon like any other thing, there is ideals to pursue and then there are varying degrees of progress in that direction (and I'm a beginner so I'm in no position to judge).

Looks like I've got a WHOLE lot more to learn :-)

Thanks again for all the input, I'll get straightened out sooner or later

Always
Bobbie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Bobbie, I think there MAY a perception deal here. If your background is in the
ACK OB classes / trials, what you might have percieved as a lack of technical correctness may have been a bit of drive gone wayward. I'm sure, as there are in most trials, some kind of handler error to be noticed, the sport of Schutzhund also puts a great deal of emphasis on the attitude of the dog and his willingness to perform a specific task, whereas in the AKC stuff, technical merit is the sole purpose of any given exercise (as I understand the ACK stuff). Hope this helps.